Posh Ram Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Whether or not he raped her, and whether or not he got the right length of sentence, when he comes out of prison he should be allowed to play again. One of the main aims of prison is to reform the offender, and if he is seen to be reformed, he deserves a second chance. We all make mistakes and yes this is far bigger than most (but a very dodgy case - and very difficult to tell whether or not the act he committed was rape), but society cannot work if forgiveness is not granted to those who have served the conviction and sentence given to them by a jury and judge, and shown remorse for the actions that they committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Can't be @ rsed to read ten pages but.... She consented to go back to the hotel room of a total stranger? She was heard having sex. She didn't make a run for it? Yet both men got charged with rape? Clearly the jury believed that the first thing was consensual. If so, then that damages her credibility. They have accepted that she did not give consent to what happened next. But did she raise the alarm? It has to be on the very edge of what is believable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Can't be @ rsed to read ten pages but.... She consented to go back to the hotel room of a total stranger? She was heard having sex. She didn't make a run for it? Yet both men got charged with rape? Clearly the jury believed that the first thing was consensual. If so, then that damages her credibility. They have accepted that she did not give consent to what happened next. But did she raise the alarm? It has to be on the very edge of what is believable. You ever spoken to a rape victim? Perhaps you have without knowing it because a lot of rape victims feel shame about reporting it and often don't raise the alarm. In my life two women have confided in me about their rape. Neither raised the alarm at the time nor reported it to the police. Raising the alarm is not necessarily something the victim will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 Does the Premier Inn sell alcohol in the rooms? I dont think so. Macdonald was acquited of rape, so Evans arriving later doesnt seem to change anything. I think the problem may be that Evans joining in is seen as tantamount to a gang bang. His conduct may be morally wrong , but I dont see any basis for saying she consented to one but not the other simply because she was drunk. If she said no to Evans then fair enough its rape. If not then not. Her having had something to drink even a lot to drink wont change that unless she was completely out of it. She wasnt or else Macdonald would have been convicted also. You can take your own drinks in with you into your rooms. The only statements that are public about the events are the blokes. A one sided story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Here's her side: (from BBC website) The jury was shown two videos of police interviews in which the woman, who was 19 at the time of the alleged attack, described drinking four double vodkas and lemonade and a shot of Sambucca at Rhyl's Zu Bar in May 2011. She told police: "I felt tipsy but not out of control. "I usually drink more than that. I haven't blacked out before, not being able to remember anything." The jury heard she denied taking drugs on the night of the alleged attack. The woman said she did not remember leaving, but had a "vague recollection of being in a kebab shop". 'Scattered clothes' She said she had tried to grab a piece of a man's pizza, adding: "It's just a blur. I just remember being there and eating a pizza." The woman said she could not remember travelling to the Premier Inn at Rhuddlan, but woke up naked in a double bed. "My clothes were scattered around on the floor," she said. "I just didn't know how I got there, if I had gone there with anyone. I was confused and dazed." She added: "I just wanted to get out of the room and find out how I got there." Consent The jury previously heard how both Mr Evans, originally from St Asaph, Denbighshire, but now of Penistone, South Yorkshire, and Mr McDonald, of Crewe, Cheshire, accepted they had intercourse with the woman. However, the prosecution allege she was in no fit state to consent. During cross-examination by Mr McDonald's barrister, Lloyd Morgan, the woman agreed she had drunk two-thirds of a bottle of wine and the other alcohol that night. She said she could not remember getting in a taxi with Mr McDonald and asking where he was going. Continue reading the main story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmericanRam Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Rape is a very hot issue in terms of what is a fair punishment for the accused,versus the validity of claims.I have written a few papers on rape and society and it is true that sometimes women do falsify a claim due to the guy after the act of consensual sex wants nothing to do with them,or they feel embarrassed,etc. Not saying this girl is lying,but it does happen more often then some may realize.If he has served his time that is great and perhaps he should not be ostracized from football the rest of his life;I just personally if I were an owner or manager not have anything to do with him due to the distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posh Ram Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Rape is a very hot issue in terms of what is a fair punishment for the accused,versus the validity of claims.I have written a few papers on rape and society and it is true that sometimes women do falsify a claim due to the guy after the act of consensual sex wants nothing to do with them,or they feel embarrassed,etc. Not saying this girl is lying,but it does happen more often then some may realize.If he has served his time that is great and perhaps he should not be ostracized from football the rest of his life;I just personally if I were an owner or manager not have anything to do with him due to the distraction. I agree with you mate. Don't think that Nigel will go for him because of his policy of a good dressing-room environment and not having time for drama queens, but I could see Evans ending up at a League One or lower-Championship club who feel that they could handle him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 For a lot of cases I hear about, and it pains me to say this about fellow females, there's a sense of entitlement that they can do whatever THEY want, get as off their face as THEY want to, then bleat about the outcome which is in no small part due to their massive absence of responsibility. And I struggle to find sympathy with this. Ridiculous comment. The whole discussion about her level of intoxication is irrelevant. If she did not actively consent, and she did not, then she was raped. To suggest that you have less right not to be raped because you are intoxicated is absurd. The 'inconsistency' between the MacDonald and Evans verdict is because she went to the room with MacDonald, which implies some level of consent, whereas Evans arrived subsequently and simply took advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 How can it be proved whether she did or didn't consent. Does a defendant have to prove she did, or does she have to offer some corroboration to an assertion that she didn't. In the statements above, she is not saying she didn't. She's just saying she can't remember. Has the case been proven beyond reasonable doubt? Clearly the jury believed that she had consented with one defendant, but hadn't consented with the other. Seems like guesswork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Seems like guesswork? Not really. It's the interpretation which most clearly fits the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Ya know for me, the whole rape debate is very sad. Especially when I think of the far too many cases of genuine rape that go even unreported in the first place due to all the odds being stacked against the victim right from the off. It stinks. And plus, there's not many posts on here which acknowledge that maybe it's the bloke who needs to change their behaviour and not blame the woman because he's unsure how much she's had to drink. That's the easy option and one which sadly many think is the norm. This and many other aspects of why rape seems quite easy to get away with is slowly changing when it comes to how the courts deal with it. But ill feeling towards genuine victims really should stop because that is so unfair and wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 society cannot work if forgiveness is not granted to those who have served the conviction and sentence given to them by a jury and judge, and shown remorse for the actions that they committed. He hasn't shown any remorse. The right of the individual to be rehabilitated has to be balanced with message that is sent when that person is in the public eye. Evans has the right to earn a living and take his place in society, but that isn't automatically the same as having the right to be a professional footballer. Signing an unrepentant rapist has the potential to adversely influence the attitudes and actions of a generation of fans. I wouldn't want him playing for my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posh Ram Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think of the far too many cases of genuine rape that go even unreported in the first place due to all the odds being stacked against the victim right from the off. It stinks. I'm not sure that's the case. Yes lots of cases go unreported which is very sad but are the odds really stacked against the victim? Look at this case. Imo it's almost impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Evans raped her, yet he has been in jail for two years. If the odds were stacked against the victim, don't you think he'd still be free and playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Here's her side: (from BBC website) The jury was shown two videos of police interviews in which the woman, who was 19 at the time of the alleged attack, described drinking four double vodkas and lemonade and a shot of Sambucca at Rhyl's Zu Bar in May 2011. She told police: "I felt tipsy but not out of control. "I usually drink more than that. I haven't blacked out before, not being able to remember anything." The jury heard she denied taking drugs on the night of the alleged attack. The woman said she did not remember leaving, but had a "vague recollection of being in a kebab shop". 'Scattered clothes' She said she had tried to grab a piece of a man's pizza, adding: "It's just a blur. I just remember being there and eating a pizza." The woman said she could not remember travelling to the Premier Inn at Rhuddlan, but woke up naked in a double bed. "My clothes were scattered around on the floor," she said. "I just didn't know how I got there, if I had gone there with anyone. I was confused and dazed." She added: "I just wanted to get out of the room and find out how I got there." Consent The jury previously heard how both Mr Evans, originally from St Asaph, Denbighshire, but now of Penistone, South Yorkshire, and Mr McDonald, of Crewe, Cheshire, accepted they had intercourse with the woman. However, the prosecution allege she was in no fit state to consent. During cross-examination by Mr McDonald's barrister, Lloyd Morgan, the woman agreed she had drunk two-thirds of a bottle of wine and the other alcohol that night. She said she could not remember getting in a taxi with Mr McDonald and asking where he was going. Continue reading the main story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 He hasn't shown any remorse. The right of the individual to be rehabilitated has to be balanced with message that is sent when that person is in the public eye. Evans has the right to earn a living and take his place in society, but that isn't automatically the same as having the right to be a professional footballer. Signing an unrepentant rapist has the potential to adversely influence the attitudes and actions of a generation of fans. I wouldn't want him playing for my club. He has pleaded innocence and continues to do so , and I am not surprised. He has rightly shown remorse for cheating on his girlfriend. He cant show remorse for a crime he doesnt believe he has committed . His girlfriend more than anyone, should have most reason not to forgive him, yet she does. Everyone else should do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I'm not sure that's the case. Yes lots of cases go unreported which is very sad but are the odds really stacked against the victim? Look at this case. Imo it's almost impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Evans raped her, yet he has been in jail for two years. If the odds were stacked against the victim, don't you think he'd still be free and playing? Yes, the odds are stacked against the victim. They have to go through the humiliation of having their sexual history described to the court, as if that is the most important aspect of the case ; they have all aspects of their character pulled apart. As if the victim was to blame. Going through the trauma of a trial under those circumstances is often too much in addition to the original act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Yes, the odds are stacked against the victim. They have to go through the humiliation of having their sexual history described to the court, as if that is the most important aspect of the case ; they have all aspects of their character pulled apart. As if the victim was to blame. Going through the trauma of a trial under those circumstances is often too much in addition to the original act. I appreciate this Andy , victims of many crimes or wrondoings often feel that they are the ones on trial when things go to Court or whatever. Our legal system does require that a guilty verdict must be based on "beyond reasonable doubt" so in that sense the odds are against. Rape cases will be difficult because it is usually one persons version against another. There no easy answer though is there? My approcah would be to ignore the morals of the case on both sides. Picking up a total stranger, drunken threesomes etc so what? It happens, and moral judgements about her conduct or his conduct should not be made. Giving the benefit of doubt the other way, as seems to have happened in this case is bound to lead to injustices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I can fully see your point about women crying false rape exascerbating genuine victims' pain and struggle to report it though Pete, I think such a thing to do is disgusting and cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Not really. It's the interpretation which most clearly fits the facts. Then why was the first bloke charged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I appreciate this Andy , victims of many crimes or wrondoings often feel that they are the ones on trial when things go to Court or whatever. Our legal system does require that a guilty verdict must be based on "beyond reasonable doubt" so in that sense the odds are against. Rape cases will be difficult because it is usually one persons version against another. There no easy answer though is there? My approcah would be to ignore the morals of the case on both sides. Picking up a total stranger, drunken threesomes etc so what? It happens, and moral judgements about her conduct or his conduct should not be made. Giving the benefit of doubt the other way, as seems to have happened in this case is bound to lead to injustices. No, you are right, there are no easy solutions, either in law or culturally. It will often come down to who is more believable and that's why the victim's character is so often given a mauling by the defence (and why so many victims simply don't want to go through it). Cultural changes need to take place - women need to exist in an environment where they are not objectified by men, where they can behave in ways similar to men without being stigmatised as a 'slag' or 'asking for it', or any of the other phrases trolled out by men who can't control themselves. Women need to be given more respect and men need to control themselves. In short, we need a much more civilised society. No easy solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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