Liverpool/Gerrard/Title

[ossieram]

All comes down to why did they change officers statements, why did they have a meeting and decide to blame the fans before they had investigated........the ****** irony of the event is that a small portion of the blame may well have fell on the fans if the authorities hadn't instigated a cover up - we'll probably never know for definite - but the scared, little men who were more interested in protecting a working class hating government are the ones to blame for the horrendous lies that were spread later that day.

There were a hell of a lot of lies about things that happened that day and those responsible have to be dealt with.

But it really grates with me when people say there were no pissed up or ticket less fans there that were helping to cause the crush that was happening outside the ground.

Every club has supporters that are going to try it on if they can't get tickets to big games and even more fans that will have a few too many before games. But i know from experience that Liverpool had more fans than most that were willing to try it on. The fact that people expect us to believe that none of them were there that day, Is a complete joke.

[MuespachRam]

Justice..?

The truth..?

Accountability..?

Compensation..?

[uttoxram75]

There were a hell of a lot of lies about things that happened that day and those responsible have to be dealt with.

But it really grates with me when people say there were no pissed up or ticket less fans there that were helping to cause the crush that was happening outside the ground.

Every club has supporters that are going to try it on if they can't get tickets to big games and even more fans that will have a few too many before games. But i know from experience that Liverpool had more fans than most that were willing to try it on. The fact that people expect us to believe that none of them were there that day, Is a complete joke.

They were no better or worse than any bitd ossie.

 

Man Utd fans were evil little bullies at our semi-final there in 76. They could well have caused a Hillsborough or Heysel type situation with their constant attacks on Derby fans before and during the game. Gobshite bullies when they outnumbered you 3-1, not so when evens....

 

Your point about tickets and drinking is absolutely valid, what subsequent investigations have found though is that it didn't cause the tragedy - dunt mean they weren't there though.

[Rev]

Sorry to drag this back to football but read today that liverpool haven't won at palace last four attempts, and have never beaten a pulis side away from home. Meanwhile City never win at everton, seems set up nicely for chelski to nick it, leading to a campaign to bring back Terry for the World Cup. On that basis, hope title stays up north.

[davenportram]

None of the families, or anyone I've heard speak about Holsborough, has ever said there weren't any ticketless or drunk fans.

The effect of those that were on the crush was deemed to be negligable.

[davenportram]

Sorry to drag this back to football but read today that liverpool haven't won at palace last four attempts, and have never beaten a pulis side away from home. Meanwhile City never win at everton, seems set up nicely for chelski to nick it, leading to a campaign to bring back Terry for the World Cup. On that basis, hope title stays up north.

Not if Liverpool beat Chelsea - they'd be five points clear of them and could afford to lose one. If city lose to Everton.

[ossieram]

They were no better or worse than any bitd ossie.

 

Man Utd fans were evil little bullies at our semi-final there in 76. They could well have caused a Hillsborough or Heysel type situation with their constant attacks on Derby fans before and during the game. Gobshite bullies when they outnumbered you 3-1, not so when evens....

 

Your point about tickets and drinking is absolutely valid, what subsequent investigations have found though is that it didn't cause the tragedy - dunt mean they weren't there though.

I agree about the mancs, But disagree when you say they were no better or worse.

I worked the turnstyles at the BBG for a while many years ago and the 3 sets of fans you had to watch out for were Man Utd, Liverpool and Everton when it came to trying to get in for nothing. I've seen them trying to crawl under the turnstyles and through the legs of other fans, Luckily we had sliding doors that could be slammed and used to trap them.

[davenportram]

Makes the decision to remove the ticket checks on the approach to the stadium even more of a mistake.

[ossieram]

Makes the decision to remove the ticket checks on the approach to the stadium even more of a mistake.

Agreed.

[GboroRam]

I think the behaviour of The Sun was what made me most outraged. If it hadn't been for the headlines, their regurgitation of the lies that the police and the government spun, the instant pointing of fingers at the fans, the wholly invented and inaccurate reporting, maybe i woukd feel different.

You can't compare this to a natural disaster like a tsunami. This was innocent football fans killed by bad decisions. Decisions they then covered up, aided and abetted by a vile right wing newspaper who turned it against the innocent.

I will never, never buy that rag. I'd sooner buy the daily mail - and they supported the Nazis in the 1930s.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Thought long and hard before commenting on this as clearly I, along with most, don't know all the facts. What I do know is that emotive language and prejudice seem to appear on both sides of this argument. Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

As far as I understand it:

1.  The crush occurred outside initially due to Liverpool fans arriving late. Whether they were drunk or ticketless I don't know but there were far too many for the ground to hold.

2. In a panic and fearing loss of life outside, the police decision was to open the gates to let them in. Big mistake as due to the fencing those inside couldn't get out.

3. The crush was quickly transferred from outside to inside. Before it was obvious what was happening people were being crushed and suffocated.

4. The authorities, particularly the police, were slow to react. Gates onto the pitch were kept closed panic set in.

5. Realising in due course that they had made a terrible mistake the police hierarchy plotted to cover their mistakes. They immediately pointed the finger at the Liverpool fans (not those who died necessarily) who had a terrible reputation as a whole for crowd trouble anyway.

6. The press picked up on it and trashed Liverpool fans. Most football fans and non football fans, taking things at face value, agreed.

7. The families of those who tragically died saw their dead loved one being blamed (as Liverpool fans) for their own deaths. This they saw as an injustice as to them it was poor policing that caused the problem.

8. Eventually cracks appeared in the Police version of events and indeed gross negligence was uncovered.

9. The families of the deceased demanded action and still demand it.

 

The truth? To me, as someone far removed, it seems that the cause of the deaths was a combination of irresponsible fans in combination with negligent policing.

 

The solution? Those in the police who lied and covered their own negligence should be brought to justice. The Liverpool fans (as a collective) should acknowledge their irresponsibility  in creating the problem.

 

The Reality? Don't hold your breath for either!

[ladyram]

People just need to look at the incontavertable facts and stop with the pathetic, bigoted vitriol.

2 years ago it took David Cameron to announce to all, to have it confirmed, that the police had indeed lied.

Still, this does not matter to some, who no matter what, will always speak of the families who have in effect stopped living their normal lives for the last 25 years, in a bad light, when all they are determined to do is get to the truth onhow exactly their dads, sons, brothers, daughters died.

They didn't want this, they don't need this. They should have been able to do their grieving when this happened - but how could they? With all the lies being told about them, dodgy pathologist reports wrong times of death and all the rest of the falseties? What choice did they have except to try and clear their names and get to the truth? Cos I'll tell you this for nowt, who here wouldn't have done the same?

Disrespectful comments like the pathetic one about claiming compensation and people phoning in sick, are imo way out of order. I think Muespach is wrong to say this, and I bet he'd never have the guts to say this to even one of those family members, no way - but more than happy to peddle his own vile views onto others when he knows he's just plain wrong. No doubt you will come back with more spew Muespach, well please don't bother, because I have no interest in anything you have to say regarding this.

But onto other points,

I've said before ticketless fans were present but not the cause. Some fans were drunk but not the cause.

Fans arrived late. True, they did - but roadworks and the police themselves stopping coaches on the way in did nothing to help but this along with other things are conveniently forgotten if it doesn't fit with peoples own twisted versions of events.

It's a waste of time anyone trying to convince Liverpool haters anything, they're so far gone and lost in their own hate that I doubt if they're bothered fans died at all. They just don't appear to give one.

That's up to them, I couldn't care less about them either but I do care about all the families who once again, today, acted with more dignity and courage than the haters will ever know.

RIP the 96. I so hope the families can soon get closure and go on to have normal lives, finally.

[EastKentRam]

People dont get crushed if people dont get pushed.

 

If you have 50 people in a room that holds 50 people nobody gets killed until the actions of those 50 people causes it to happen.

 

To says the fans shouldnt take some responsibility is just plain wrong. People trying to get into the ground crushed those already in the ground, it's sad but true.

 

Of course those fans should'nt have been let in, of course the police should take responsibility, but so should some others. 

[ladyram]

Which goes back to Leppings Lane being totally unsuitable for the number of Liverpool fans. The police knew this but did what to change it?

[uttoxram75]

I'm locking this thread. We could continue to debate it in The Pointy Room, although its been done many times and people won't change their views anyway.