Mostyn6 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Better what? If we go above them next week will Clough be better then? If you want to slag Clough I have no problem with it if I think the points you make are valid. Would you like to debate and back your point up or do you just want to leave it that you are right? Right, I'll reiterate. What POWELL has achieved, taking a team from the lower league, getting promotion, having a small budget and restrictions, AND securing a position in the league above......COMPARED to what Nigel has achieved.....???? There you go. Nigel has NOT achieved anything. He's just kept the boat afloat, and nothing more. If Powell had done the same, Charlton would still be mid-table in the division below, but as he HAS achieved success, by comparison, he is a better manager than Nigel Clough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Right, I'll reiterate. What POWELL has achieved, taking a team from the lower league, getting promotion, having a small budget and restrictions, AND securing a position in the league above......COMPARED to what Nigel has achieved.....???? There you go. Nigel has NOT achieved anything. He's just kept the boat afloat, and nothing more. If Powell had done the same, Charlton would still be mid-table in the division below, but as he HAS achieved success, by comparison, he is a better manager than Nigel Clough. You are not quantifying anything by what you are saying though. What would your response be to someone who said Nigel Clough has taken a team in freefall, with no self confidence, 1 home win in god knows how long, a small budget and restrictions, has stabilised them and at times had them playing the best football seen at our ground for many years and had them flirting with the play offs? Not saying that is my personal thoughts. Just wondered if you saw that as an achievement or not? Do you also have Clough down as a better manager than Mick McCarthy, Eddie Howe etc etc Just looking back to 2009, there are 14 clubs that have made slight progress or are below us now, that were above us back then. Is Clough better than the managers of them 14 clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 It seems us mods will be getting busy unless people take a break, have a culpa and stop winding each other up. If anybody is unhappy with posts report them If you don't want to read a posters posts just hit the ignore button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Oh and don't add to the squabbling - keep posts on topic too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 If Clough does better than the wages table would suggest,I don't think he could be termed a poor manager.It's fine saying others have done well on limited resources,but should you actually expect someone to do well on a shoestring? If the answer is yes,then shouldn't you expect managers with more resources to do even better ? Having said that,I'm very worried about the next game-we can't afford to lose that or our position might start to become worse than the pay table (or it might be more appropriate to say we could be pitched into the relegation battle with a vengeance if other results went badly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 You are not quantifying anything by what you are saying though. What would your response be to someone who said Nigel Clough has taken a team in freefall, with no self confidence, 1 home win in god knows how long, a small budget and restrictions, has stabilised them and at times had them playing the best football seen at our ground for many years and had them flirting with the play offs? Not saying that is my personal thoughts. Just wondered if you saw that as an achievement or not? Do you also have Clough down as a better manager than Mick McCarthy, Eddie Howe etc etc Just looking back to 2009, there are 14 clubs that have made slight progress or are below us now, that were above us back then. Is Clough better than the managers of them 14 clubs? 1) I'd say we weren't in freefall, we were hovering in a similar position to what we did the three seasons after. At the time Clough had taken over, we had won a lot more than one game in a year. That win (v Sheff Utd) was in September I think, the day I got back off holiday. Clough took over in January. Don't rewrite history, Jewell had almost stabilised us, albeit in a poor position. yes there was some improvement. I would argue that our football flatters to deceive. Best football is a massive exaggeration. There were more memorable performances under Davies in one season than under Clough. I don't think you can say you've flirted with the play-offs if you havent been in a play off position AFTER the new year of a season, and we havent, so have never actually flirted with the play-offs. We were table-toppers once! But you don't say we flirt with winning the league! You mention self-confidence... I'd say we don't look like a side blessed with any confidence, particularly after Nigel slams players on the radio. I don't see it as an achievement. I see it as just 'being'. If I was mentioning achievements, I'd point to victories at Elland Road and the City Ground. However these are neutralised by poor results against lower sides in the cup and league. As for McCarthy and Howe, McCarthy YES, he's proven at this level and has shown at Ipswich what a change of manager can do. Howe has still to prove it for me. He may be another who is suited to small club, like Darren Ferguson for example. As for the other 14 clubs, well maybe, but my main concern is Derby County realising their potential, other clubs failings are not my concern and cannot be used to excuse Clough's failings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 That's two more posts hidden for adding nothing to the discussion and just trying to relight an argument. I hope people actually read when mods are trying to keep this forum a friendly pace to be - I hope noones deliberately trolling or wumming each other. Disagree and rcomment on ideas not the people making them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North_Stand_Ram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Charlton were near the bottom 3 a few weeks ago. Its so tight, if we win all our remaining games and go on a run we'll finish in the top 8. 3/4 wins puts you up there. But yes, Powells done a very good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 1) I'd say we weren't in freefall, we were hovering in a similar position to what we did the three seasons after. At the time Clough had taken over, we had won a lot more than one game in a year. That win (v Sheff Utd) was in September I think, the day I got back off holiday. Clough took over in January. Don't rewrite history, Jewell had almost stabilised us, albeit in a poor position. yes there was some improvement. I would argue that our football flatters to deceive. Best football is a massive exaggeration. There were more memorable performances under Davies in one season than under Clough. I don't think you can say you've flirted with the play-offs if you havent been in a play off position AFTER the new year of a season, and we havent, so have never actually flirted with the play-offs. We were table-toppers once! But you don't say we flirt with winning the league! You mention self-confidence... I'd say we don't look like a side blessed with any confidence, particularly after Nigel slams players on the radio. I don't see it as an achievement. I see it as just 'being'. If I was mentioning achievements, I'd point to victories at Elland Road and the City Ground. However these are neutralised by poor results against lower sides in the cup and league. As for McCarthy and Howe, McCarthy YES, he's proven at this level and has shown at Ipswich what a change of manager can do. Howe has still to prove it for me. He may be another who is suited to small club, like Darren Ferguson for example. As for the other 14 clubs, well maybe, but my main concern is Derby County realising their potential, other clubs failings are not my concern and cannot be used to excuse Clough's failings. Weren't in freefall? 18th place with 2 wins in 15 matches. I would not call that 'hovering'. However, looking at the stats, you were right, it was 5 wins in 16 months, not 1 in 1 year. So you don't see stabilising a team as an achievement, only promotion? That's fair comment I suppose. So in 5 matches time Powell will join the list of failures. If your main concern is Derby, then don't do comparisons with other managers. Instead discuss what Clough is doing wrong and how you think he could turn it aroud or if he should be sacked. Its easy to pick a manager of a team who is higher than us in the league and use him as an example to beat Clough but its just as easy to do the opposite....Dean Saunders is a failure blah blah blah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 hahaha, I've discussed in great detail what Clough is doing wrong. The responses I get regarding that are generally excuses hiding behind investment. Indirectly, they have triggered this thread, where I am suggesting, with an example, that a good manager can do better than Clough without investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Oh and maybe stabilising a team WAS an achievement. Back in 2009! It's now 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 . As for the other 14 clubs, well maybe, but my main concern is Derby County realising their potential, other clubs failings are not my concern and cannot be used to excuse Clough's failings. So if you get your wish,who (realistically) do you want to see as the next manager? You never know,you might get your wish and we could either bow down at your feet or pelt you with rotten fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notts_ram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 So if you get your wish,who (realistically) do you want to see as the next manager? You never know,you might get your wish and we could either bow down at your feet or pelt you with rotten fruit. The fruit sounds promising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 The fruit sounds promising Not for the fruit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 hahaha, I've discussed in great detail what Clough is doing wrong. The responses I get regarding that are generally excuses hiding behind investment. Indirectly, they have triggered this thread, where I am suggesting, with an example, that a good manager can do better than Clough without investment. So getting promoted from a lower league and being above us for one match means that he is doing a better job?! Was you saying the same about Simon Grayson earlier on in the season? Its just as easy to say that Nigel Pearson has had £x million more than Clough to spend yet is only a few points ahead of us so Clough is doing a brilliant job, hence why I said people can pick absolutely any example and twist it to meet their agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 So if you get your wish,who (realistically) do you want to see as the next manager? You never know,you might get your wish and we could either bow down at your feet or pelt you with rotten fruit. So if you get your wish,who (realistically) do you want to see as the next manager? You never know,you might get your wish and we could either bow down at your feet or pelt you with rotten fruit. Sadly, managers who I'd want have been unemployed and snapped up in the time I've been thinking Clough's management will not take us anywhere upwards. I reckon that any manager I mention will get the response of "he wont come here without transfer funds", so there's no point in me even listing people who I would have. It's been done a million times. I would want someone who has shown to have the ability to spring a surprise result, or a magical cup run. Someone who knows how to create a siege mentality, an 'us and them' closed shop (not public slating of players), someone who is positive and won't accept 'losing' easily just because it wasn't a drubbing. Basically, I think I'm at the stage where I'd take a risk and employ anyone cos I do think Nigel will take us down next seasons once our gems are sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 So getting promoted from a lower league and being above us for one match means that he is doing a better job?! Was you saying the same about Simon Grayson earlier on in the season? Its just as easy to say that Nigel Pearson has had £x million more than Clough to spend yet is only a few points ahead of us so Clough is doing a brilliant job, hence why I said people can pick absolutely any example and twist it to meet their agenda. Pearson is in his first season, bad example. Clough has had four years to build his own team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Pearson is in his first season, bad example. Clough has had four years to build his own team. How much has Pearson spent putting someone elses team together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notts_ram Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Sadly, managers who I'd want have been unemployed and snapped up in the time I've been thinking Clough's management will not take us anywhere upwards. Come on, don't be shy, put your head above the parapet and say who you would want in to replace Clough......and Jose Mourinho doesn't count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 hahaha, I've discussed in great detail what Clough is doing wrong. The responses I get regarding that are generally excuses hiding behind investment. Indirectly, they have triggered this thread, where I am suggesting, with an example, that a good manager can do better than Clough without investment. If investment isn't a problem,why did you spend so much time on a recent phone in asking for it? (in fact I think you called for decent investment).You've recently said that the players weren't the problem and that it was all the manager's fault-if the players are ok,then why call for investment? From what I've heard from today,it's poor defending and finishing that's let us down yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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