the overhaul needed...is not of players!

[Mostyn6]

I think you've been an active poster a bit longer than that Mostyn, I still remember that fat pink numpty who sat in the bath. 606 as well you've been there for ages and it's never been with a different angle.

Do you know how long after Clough had started you made your first "Clough out before he destroys the fabric of the club" post?

One day before it was officially confirmed he got the job.

I really don't know what you're on about. I only reactivated my password last week having never posted in 3 years since joining this forum. I don't need to lie about it!

I don't get your reference to pink numpty and bath... please explain.

Yes, I was active on 606, but that place shut down 2 years ago.

It was about the April, so 3 months into Clough's reign when I started worrying. Probably another 6 months before I said he should go.

[blackNwhites]

I think I've only made two threads so wind your neck in, or debate the points. The fact that you have to resort to petty name-calling says it all about you. Not intelligent enough to hold a conversation and not mature enough to accept other people have opinions without spitting your dummy and name-calling. How proud your parents must be!

Pot kettle black.

Even though you've only made two threads, the majority of your posts have consisted of the same subject. Now all you're doing is pulling teams from your hat since your crystal ball method was ousted, and using them as an example to attack Clough.

[Albert]

I have heard very similar WestLondonRam.

Sources close to Clough and Garner seem to think that they are expecting the boot in the summer. (I hope so).

I speak to my other half's family who are all 'pro-clough', and they can't believe that attendances are dropping and they think we are playing great football at home this year, so opinions are clearly split, but I come back to the age old argument... if Nigel and his cronies left DCFC who would be offering them jobs in the NPC?

I watch Middlesborough on the FL show, and cant help but fear that we could be facing empty seats, boring football and zero ambition for some time to come. I won't be renewing. It doesn't offer value for money... and I am biased because I cannot stand Clough.

Negative? Absolutely....I can't pretend to be entertained by it anymore.

I honestly can't see the club sacking Nigel when he has a contract until summer 2015. The compensation for him, his backroom team (which if I recall all had their deals extended with him) would cost a huge amount considering they have a whole what... 28 months to run on their deals? Add to this the cost of a new manager and the fact that the board have made it clear that Nigel is their man many times.

I honestly don't see it happening. It reminds me of the rumours of him "returning to Burton" after the 2010-11 season if I recall correctly.

[ramblur]

Looking at the 08/09 table ,when Swansea finished 8th on 58 points (14 better than us),it's obvious that they were way better than us before Clough arrived.Aided by the momentum of a promotion the year before,they were able to gradually improve on the back of a good,settled base.Clough,in contrast,has had to constantly chop and change his side to bring the wage bill down by discarding high earners.It's only now that he's got to a base anywhere near comparable to Swansea in 08/09.Hopefully,he'll now be able to bring in the quality required to progress us further.If he's allowed to do this and fails,then I may have grave doubts about his ability.I'll judge him on what he does with reference to the resources he's allowed.

[Duracell]

Looking at the 08/09 table ,when Swansea finished 8th on 58 points (14 better than us),it's obvious that they were way better than us before Clough arrived.Aided by the momentum of a promotion the year before,they were able to gradually improve on the back of a good,settled base.Clough,in contrast,has had to constantly chop and change his side to bring the wage bill down by discarding high earners.It's only now that he's got to a base anywhere near comparable to Swansea in 08/09.Hopefully,he'll now be able to bring in the quality required to progress us further.If he's allowed to do this and fails,then I may have grave doubts about his ability.I'll judge him on what he does with reference to the resources he's allowed.

I think Swansea's League One side was better than our Prem team I'd say. That side would have struggled to get out of League 1.

The worst part is, our wage bill was probably twice what theirs was at the time.

[ronnieronalde]

I really don't know what you're on about. I only reactivated my password last week having never posted in 3 years since joining this forum. I don't need to lie about it!

I don't get your reference to pink numpty and bath... please explain.

Yes, I was active on 606, but that place shut down 2 years ago.

It was about the April, so 3 months into Clough's reign when I started worrying. Probably another 6 months before I said he should go.

The last avatar you had was of a fat pink man sitting in a bath. I don't know if it was here or if it was on derbycountymad, 606 shut down two years but was re-opened immediately as ja606 and I can even see you posting on there on current threads.

Remarkably I've never found a positive Mostyn post on there either.

[Mostyn6]

Mostyn - you clearly have a problem with the management. Whilst I don't agree, I do respect your opinion (although I don't respect you telling me I misinterpret dinky passing as being a good footballing team - that's an opinion, and I can form them with my own eyes).

I agree with some of your points - we could, on occasion, be more positive.

BUT - I think Clough is doing a decent job overall, bottom line. You seem to feel pretty strongly that he isn't, and it's time for a change.

My question to you, and all the other people who feel Clough should go is - what are you doing about it?

Where are the protests? Where are the banners? You'll no doubt say that attendances tell the story, but they don't - attendances are down all over the place. What are you doing about it, apart from coming on here, having a moan?

NC must be the least popular manager in the history of world football that hasn't been on the end of a protest, or even a 'Clough Out' chant. Going to our games, you wouldn't even know there was a split opinion on him. It's only when you're in the car listening to Radio Derby, or logging on here.

I remember going to forest and getting rinsed out 3-0. People were going absolutely postal, calling for Gregory's head. We lost 5-2 and even then the moaning towards Clough didn't start until the day after.

The day there's a significant movement against the current management (which there should be - I've stood/sat around hundreds of people who mutter under their breath about it) is the day I'll take the complaining seriously. Otherwise, as much as I do respect opinions, it comes across as hot air, a frustration after a defeat.

I can only speak for myself here, I am happy to vent my spleen in the pub, on the way home, on the radio, on facebook and on forums such as this, BUT, I know that when I'm at the game, I am actively wanting things to go well, I am wanting Sammon to bag a hattrick etc, and I know that any negative reactions like booing and jeering, and even cheering when someone underperforming is subbed off, is counter-productive, even self-destructive. On here, people may think I'm an awful fan, but compared to the way some fans behave in the ground and how they react, I'm a model supporter!

I wouldn't start a protest against Clough, cos in my heart, I want him to be a success. I don't hold hopes because I genuinely don't see him ever adapting/learning/adjusting etc.

[gcdcfc28]

Hang the man, he posts on other forums!

[eddie]

Nigel? Is that you? Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

No mostyn, it's you.

Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

You do this quite a lot - taking the pee out of the way that Clough speaks. I've never knowingly heard you speak at all, but I woiuld be willing to bet that I could run rings around you as far as speech-making (after-dinner speaking, competition speeches, radio work and other general public speaking events) is concerned.

It doesn't necessarily make me a better person than you, neither more intelligent nor making me better equipped than you to carry out my chosen line of work.

Your arguments are very good and persuasive enough without you needing to resort to crass insults that should be beneath anyone of your intelligence.

[Mostyn6]

The last avatar you had was of a fat pink man sitting in a bath. I don't know if it was here or if it was on derbycountymad, 606 shut down two years but was re-opened immediately as ja606 and I can even see you posting on there on current threads.

Remarkably I've never found a positive Mostyn post on there either.

Oh, yeah, I follow now. Sorry, forgot all about that. That's my avatar on comeonyourams, it's family guy.

Anyway, if you haven't seen anything positive then you obviously haven't looked hard enough. I'm constructive not destructive, at least give me some credit. There are others who just say negative things, at least I try and explain why I have the opinions I do.

[Asanovic]

I can only speak for myself here, I am happy to vent my spleen in the pub, on the way home, on the radio, on facebook and on forums such as this, BUT, I know that when I'm at the game, I am actively wanting things to go well, I am wanting Sammon to bag a hattrick etc, and I know that any negative reactions like booing and jeering, and even cheering when someone underperforming is subbed off, is counter-productive, even self-destructive. On here, people may think I'm an awful fan, but compared to the way some fans behave in the ground and how they react, I'm a model supporter!

I wouldn't start a protest against Clough, cos in my heart, I want him to be a success. I don't hold hopes because I genuinely don't see him ever adapting/learning/adjusting etc.

I can't argue with any of that. Respect to you.

[ramblur]

I think Swansea's League One side was better than our Prem team I'd say. That side would have struggled to get out of League 1.

The worst part is, our wage bill was probably twice what theirs was at the time.

I've seen you say something like this before,Bunny,but not quite as stringent ! I think there were 2 basic reasons why we struggled so badly in the Prem:-

1) We spent a load of money on rubbish.

2) I think something destroyed the team spirit that was the main plank of our promotion,and I think it all started with BD's outburst after the play off final.Something wasn't right and I think it transmitted to the players.

I think it's a bit harsh to say that a group of players (predominantly) that had previously gained promotion from the Championship wouldn't have gained promotion from a league lower.

You're probably right about the wages,and therein lay the problem.

[Mostyn6]

Pot kettle black.

Even though you've only made two threads, the majority of your posts have consisted of the same subject. Now all you're doing is pulling teams from your hat since your crystal ball method was ousted, and using them as an example to attack Clough.

So you cannot actually disagree with my posts, you just don't like me posting them? okayyyyyy......then.....

[ronnieronalde]

Oh, yeah, I follow now. Sorry, forgot all about that. That's my avatar on comeonyourams, it's family guy.

Anyway, if you haven't seen anything positive then you obviously haven't looked hard enough. I'm constructive not destructive, at least give me some credit. There are others who just say negative things, at least I try and explain why I have the opinions I do.

I won't be one of those who hammers you Mostyn. I'll just pop up every now and then and disagree.

The thing that frustrates me personally is that for someone who is so convinced they know what they're talking about, how do you miss ALL of the positives?

It's that bit I don't get and it's that bit that provokes the responses you get, a bit of balance might calm things down.

[Mostyn6]

I've seen you say something like this before,Bunny,but not quite as stringent ! I think there were 2 basic reasons why we struggled so badly in the Prem:-

1) We spent a load of money on rubbish.

2) I think something destroyed the team spirit that was the main plank of our promotion,and I think it all started with BD's outburst after the play off final.Something wasn't right and I think it transmitted to the players.

I think it's a bit harsh to say that a group of players (predominantly) that had previously gained promotion from the Championship wouldn't have gained promotion from a league lower.

You're probably right about the wages,and therein lay the problem.

Whilst I was aiming to talk about positive philosophy on this thread, I like this post Ramblur. It says a lot about how a manager can purposefully 'sabotage' something.

I have to be careful how I word this for obvious reasons, but in the week Nigel was appointed, I had a meeting with Mr Pearson who was at that time chairman of football here at Derby. I grilled him about a few things, and he made an interesting accusation or two about a certain manager. Basically a certain manager had heard that a previous high-profile board member had approached another manager (who ironically later became the manager) to sound him out about replacing the manager in question. The certain manager demanded that the recently appointed chief exec and the board member were removed from their posts immediately or would go for 'constructive dismissal' having got a new contract! The manager won and another board member took the reigns. Said manager then wanted more transfer funds and then wanted paying to leave, being declined on both fronts. Now the interesting allegation is that a certain manager forced through a certain purchase of a player who 'failed' a basic medical on the grounds of 'dodgy knees'. The further allegations were that there was deliberate purchase of players not up to the level required, and several attempts to get sacked.........

[Duracell]

I've seen you say something like this before,Bunny,but not quite as stringent ! I think there were 2 basic reasons why we struggled so badly in the Prem:-

1) We spent a load of money on rubbish.

2) I think something destroyed the team spirit that was the main plank of our promotion,and I think it all started with BD's outburst after the play off final.Something wasn't right and I think it transmitted to the players.

I think it's a bit harsh to say that a group of players (predominantly) that had previously gained promotion from the Championship wouldn't have gained promotion from a league lower.

You're probably right about the wages,and therein lay the problem.

I know for pure ability that side probably had enough to stay up in the Championship, but the spirit within a team is still part of the team. That bad team spirit you cite made ok players indescribably poor - and I don't think League One is poor enough a league for it not to be a problem still. We even looked bad in the Cup.

Lots of teams have a decent season and then crash the season after - often called "the play-off blues". We fluked our way through the three play-off matches and had our blues in the Premier League.

There's plenty to dicuss about that but I think it's pretty fundamental that there was too much money being paid for those players with so little return. We'll never see a worse return for our money again.

It's one of the things you must give credit for. I have lost a lot of faith in Clough but his job has been very difficult, and he has stopped the rot. But when you restore a house, you don't get the same guy who treated the dry rot to also be your interior designer. Maybe it's time for something different. Maybe.

[Mostyn6]

I won't be one of those who hammers you Mostyn. I'll just pop up every now and then and disagree.

The thing that frustrates me personally is that for someone who is so convinced they know what they're talking about, how do you miss ALL of the positives?

It's that bit I don't get and it's that bit that provokes the responses you get, a bit of balance might calm things down.

Ronnie, I do and have commented on the positives. Sadly though for me, the bigger picture and the overall feeling i get is not one i can fake. I cannot fake a positive outlook when I can see just how far away we are in so many aspects.

My positives, and I do list them, In fact I'll copy direct from a post I made on another forum:-

comment by [url=http://www.ja606.co.uk/users/viewUser/1485]Ḿṍṧṫẏṅ6 - time to stir the stagnant pond water (U1485)

posted 1 week, 5 days ago

Positive spins:-

-We are still in existence as a club.

-We are still in the top third of all clubs in the football league.

-We will not be relegated this season.

-We still have our soul, integrity and honesty as a club.

-We have numerous players who are either nowhere near their best or have yet to develop to reach their best.

-We do not have a knee-jerk, trigger-happy bunch of owners.

-We no longer have the burden of unwanted players on the books, draining the club of wages.

-IF (and it's a big if) the owners ever decide to invest and 'Go For It', cos the squad is so small and contracts short and cheap, any costly recruits can go straight into the team alongside our core, with minimal impact, and hardly any drain on resources (a la Claude Davis).

-We know that any sign of excitement or success would see the fickle fans (myself included) return to the stands to watch.

-None of our debt is to actual creditors or banks, thus meaning that we will never be forced into administration by HMRC etc.

-We have a cracking pitch, which, should we ever evolve into playing the beautiful game, it'll be ready-set.

-The fact that money raised from the sales of Shackell and Davies didn't go into the pockets/bank shows that at least there is a slight admission/acceptance that there must be continual investment into the playing side. I think the owners realise that neglecting the 1st team results in ending up like Coventry.

-The owners cannot walk away from the club without writing off significant funds, and they cannot make a profit in this division, and they cannot sell it unless in the Premier League. It's in their hands.

-We do not have any 'Big time Charlies' in our team.

-We do not have any 'shirkers' in our team.

-We do appear to have a really close knit team who do seem to be good mates with each other (twitter banter proves this!)

[Asanovic]

Whilst I was aiming to talk about positive philosophy on this thread, I like this post Ramblur. It says a lot about how a manager can purposefully 'sabotage' something.

I have to be careful how I word this for obvious reasons, but in the week Nigel was appointed, I had a meeting with Mr Pearson who was at that time chairman of football here at Derby. I grilled him about a few things, and he made an interesting accusation or two about a certain manager. Basically a certain manager had heard that a previous high-profile board member had approached another manager (who ironically later became the manager) to sound him out about replacing the manager in question. The certain manager demanded that the recently appointed chief exec and the board member were removed from their posts immediately or would go for 'constructive dismissal' having got a new contract! The manager won and another board member took the reigns. Said manager then wanted more transfer funds and then wanted paying to leave, being declined on both fronts. Now the interesting allegation is that a certain manager forced through a certain purchase of a player who 'failed' a basic medical on the grounds of 'dodgy knees'. The further allegations were that there was deliberate purchase of players not up to the level required, and several attempts to get sacked.........

Would really trust that cnut after what he did at Derby?

[Pudding Jack]

I think I've only made two threads so wind your neck in, or debate the points. The fact that you have to resort to petty name-calling says it all about you. Not intelligent enough to hold a conversation and not mature enough to accept other people have opinions without spitting your dummy and name-calling. How proud your parents must be!

boring

[blackNwhites]

So you cannot actually disagree with my posts, you just don't like me posting them? okayyyyyy......then.....

When I actually make a post regarding the subject, you ignore the post. You only reply to these types.

I ask you, what is the point of repeating yourself? You don't want to debate the subject, so why start it?