Highgate

There is no light at the end of the tunnel for Palestinians. They're very much in the way. And Iran etc quite like that. While there's angry Palestinians then there will always be a resistance for Iran to tap into. And there will always be angry Palestinians because of Israel. So for those people there will never be a happy ending. 
It's always interesting though when people are more angry about a protest for a ceasefire than they are about the conditions in the region that are suffering. 

The whole protest debate is surely just down to hopeless/reckless political leadership.
How difficult is it for a politician to clearly articulate both sides of the coin:
"The Hamas attacks that started all this off were barbaric and Israel needs to take steps to prevent this happening again.
The Israel response has been barbaric too and the 1000s of deaths are no way to prevent further terror attacks.
The UK will be pressurising Israel to stop killing masses of innocent people/children whilst also helping them prevent a repeat of the Hamas attacks.
The UK will be pressuring both sides to proceed with the 2 state solution formally agreed by both parties."
 

'Bush's incomplete freedom agenda?'
That's how you are summing up his Middle East legacy?  I'm not sure we have enough common ground for a fruitful debate here.. 🤔

It was terribly incompetent, but I think the problems with that war are far deeper than just post war planning, as inept as that was. Not wishing to defend Obama's record in the least, but I'm not sure there is any such thing as being 'worse than George W. Bush' in the Middle East. 

That's one you could start. But right now I think a lot people believe that what's happening in Gaza is a war crime and the work of an Apartheid Zionist regime carrying out Ethnic cleansing. 
There's thousands of people in the dark trying to pick people out of rubble. People with injuries that can't be treated. People that have no food, water and are unable to flee. People that are critically ill. 
I think widespread calls for a ceasefire are a good thing. Even if idiots that don't know what they're talking about are jumping on a trend, I would say that it's still pretty ok to be against the indiscriminate bombing of a fenced in area the size of Glasgow where the average age is 18. 
I hope the protests continue to be carried out peacefully (I know we've had some exceptions but on the whole hundreds of thousands including Jews have marched peacefully) 
The fact the protests are now more of a talking point than what's going on in Gaza and the very rarely mentioned West Bank (where 180 people have also been killed) is pretty sad. 

Your sexuality is your business. What is this - a dating site?

Is your first name Tony?

'Bush's incomplete freedom agenda?'
That's how you are summing up his Middle East legacy?  I'm not sure we have enough common ground for a fruitful debate here.. 🤔

Manchester United
 
                 

It was terribly incompetent, but I think the problems with that war are far deeper than just post war planning, as inept as that was. Not wishing to defend Obama's record in the least, but I'm not sure there is any such thing as being 'worse than George W. Bush' in the Middle East. 

Totally justifiable war.
I'm sure those WMD will turn up any day now...

Clinton was the first U.S. president to make support for Palestinian statehood a matter of unofficial U.S. policy. The policies of ending Israel’s occupation and establishing an independent Palestinian state were formalized by George W. Bush. Barack Obama later reiterated the positions of his predecessors, though by this time they were no longer a matter of bipartisan consensus. 
Also, when you say Obama was 'not as good as Bush', in what regard? When Obama called for a two-state solution with the stipulation that the “borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines, with mutually agreed swaps” — essentially paraphrasing language used by his predecessor — he was met with wild outcry from congressional Republicans and charges of having thrown Israel “under the bus.” 
Back on Gaza, the Hamas Health Ministry now claiming in excess of 10,000 Palestinians deaths in the last 30 days with over 3,000 of them children. Grim AF and it needs to stop.

I wonder if her telling people how desperate the situation is in Gaza will hit home more than Palestinian diplomats and Queen Rania etc. I hope so. European leaders should hear her and then go look in the mirror. Ask if this is what they truly think is right

Yeah, I can't argue that history isn't filled with example of groups of people being appalling to one another.  And of course violence breeds violence. It's hard to think of the barbaric attack by Hamas on Oct.7 without thinking of the line in an Auden poem which read;
'Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.'
The decades long unjust treatment of the Palestinian people, creates Hamas, and their violence brings about further violence from the Israelis. The current relentless bombing of Gaza will result in more violence in return, and the cycle will continue on and on with no end in sight. 

It's hard to even comprehend the courage of someone like this. 
 

Yeah, I can't argue that history isn't filled with example of groups of people being appalling to one another.  And of course violence breeds violence. It's hard to think of the barbaric attack by Hamas on Oct.7 without thinking of the line in an Auden poem which read;
'Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.'
The decades long unjust treatment of the Palestinian people, creates Hamas, and their violence brings about further violence from the Israelis. The current relentless bombing of Gaza will result in more violence in return, and the cycle will continue on and on with no end in sight. 

Yeah, I can't argue that history isn't filled with example of groups of people being appalling to one another.  And of course violence breeds violence. It's hard to think of the barbaric attack by Hamas on Oct.7 without thinking of the line in an Auden poem which read;
'Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.'
The decades long unjust treatment of the Palestinian people, creates Hamas, and their violence brings about further violence from the Israelis. The current relentless bombing of Gaza will result in more violence in return, and the cycle will continue on and on with no end in sight. 

Yeah, I can't argue that history isn't filled with example of groups of people being appalling to one another.  And of course violence breeds violence. It's hard to think of the barbaric attack by Hamas on Oct.7 without thinking of the line in an Auden poem which read;
'Those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.'
The decades long unjust treatment of the Palestinian people, creates Hamas, and their violence brings about further violence from the Israelis. The current relentless bombing of Gaza will result in more violence in return, and the cycle will continue on and on with no end in sight. 

We can study back as far as we want and sources allow. Reparations for any group based on historical grievances is hugely problematic and probably totally unworkable for all sorts of reasons.  
Maybe the people with the best case for reparations were the Jews themselves after WWII. All the European countries who persecuted them could have paid into a fund and with the money they could have bought land for themselves, somewhere safe from all the inexplicable hatreds that they traditionally faced.  Maybe in hindsight, Palestine wasn't the best spot to escape to given that it was already well populated by Palestinians who were quite attached to their homeland.  
Maybe Iceland would have been a better spot....?  I'm watching Trapped at the moment, and there is practically nobody there by the looks of things! 😄 Apologies @ramit

Yeah, but I don't think you can feel sorry for anything that's founded on exploitation and the systematic extraction of wealth from other nations.  But I agree, when you remove the Imperial tyranny, often the anarchy that's left behind is just as bad.  And domestic populations are often able to mess things up all on their own, without any help from Empires. 

The most important point on the whole thread I think.  The only way to end this conflict is to treat the Palestinians with equality and justice, then support for Hamas will start to wither away over time.  It hasn't happened since 1948 and I can't see it happening now, but it's the only way forward.  Bombing Gaza will just kill thousands and prolong the conflict for decades more.   Every day is a tragedy there now. 

I definitely don't.  If there was a list of people I don't have sympathy for, the avaricious, mendacious, self important Imperialists would be right near the top.  
Still trying to clean up their mess all over the world.  And failing in a lot of places, unfortunately.   

Oh my God. 

The most important point on the whole thread I think.  The only way to end this conflict is to treat the Palestinians with equality and justice, then support for Hamas will start to wither away over time.  It hasn't happened since 1948 and I can't see it happening now, but it's the only way forward.  Bombing Gaza will just kill thousands and prolong the conflict for decades more.   Every day is a tragedy there now. 

The most important point on the whole thread I think.  The only way to end this conflict is to treat the Palestinians with equality and justice, then support for Hamas will start to wither away over time.  It hasn't happened since 1948 and I can't see it happening now, but it's the only way forward.  Bombing Gaza will just kill thousands and prolong the conflict for decades more.   Every day is a tragedy there now.