Asanovic Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Whilst I was able to identify the split between covering losses/capital expenditure/adding to cash reserves for 10/11,it's not so easy to do for prior years,Martyn. In 08/09 the administration took out new borrowing in excess of £9m,so although they injected capital of their own as well it's impossible to say which did what -either could have funded losses/either could have funded capital expenditure.The following year we don't know what repaid that loan-AA claimed investors,whereas AP seemed to contradict this by claiming it was the second chute payment. Do you feel we're in financial danger with this ownership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Thanks RB. I thought you'd identified all the capital the owners had put in so far? Only the amount in the last accounts was treated as an interest-free loan I thought? I know the club has taken out other loans but I was just talking about what had come through the parent companies (Gellaw/General Sports). Sorry Martyn,as your original post talked of covering losses,and the amounts you quoted were less than the overall total,I thought you wanted me to try and come up with a figure to cover losses. From memory (and I do so with some confidence,as I know the total is c£28m),equity investment is £7.7m+£6.6m =£14.3m,and loan capital is £1.7m (GSE) +£6.8m +£5.8m (this latter figure being indicated for 11/12 in the 10/11 directors' report) = £14.3m. Which gives a total of £28.6m.I class the £5.8m as loan capital as Glick said the mix would be roughly 50/50 (overall). It was the £6.8m loan which was said to be interest free.The 10/11 interest on the GSE loan represented over 16% of the principal amount (assumed on the basis that if the new loan were interest free,then all of the interest must attach to the GSE loan). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Do you feel we're in financial danger with this ownership? How could I possibly tell-I only know the financial position as at 30/6/11. I don't know,for instance:- 1) If the investors are still willing to cover any losses. 2) In light of the above, if we are set to make a cash loss this year. 3)If we have any cash flow problems.Was what seems to me to be the bizarre sale of Shackell really to enable us to improve the side,or to overcome cash flow problems which might have arisen if an instalment were due on him (and possibly others).Was the fee from Burnley really £1.1m,and if so was it so low because it represented an up front fee?If the newcomers were all instalment based,then you could imagine a situation whereby the £1.1m would cover a possible Shackell instalment,instalments on newcomers and leave some to spare. I don't know any of this,so I can't answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 How could I possibly tell-I only know the financial position as at 30/6/11. I don't know,for instance:- 1) If the investors are still willing to cover any losses. 2) In light of the above, if we are set to make a cash loss this year. 3)If we have any cash flow problems.Was what seems to me to be the bizarre sale of Shackell really to enable us to improve the side,or to overcome cash flow problems which might have arisen if an instalment were due on him (and possibly others).Was the fee from Burnley really £1.1m,and if so was it so low because it represented an up front fee?If the newcomers were all instalment based,then you could imagine a situation whereby the £1.1m would cover a possible Shackell instalment,instalments on newcomers and leave some to spare. I don't know any of this,so I can't answer the question. It was a genuine question. You're clearly more clued up on the business side of the club, and I'll readily admit that I'm much more a fan of the team than the club. I think they've done a decent job since being here but you know information to the contrary, so I find it interesting. Thanks for enlightening me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 It was a genuine question. You're clearly more clued up on the business side of the club, and I'll readily admit that I'm much more a fan of the team than the club. I think they've done a decent job since being here but you know information to the contrary, so I find it interesting. Thanks for enlightening me. Steady on,I've never said I know information to the contrary,just that there may be possibilities-it's because of information I don't know that I can't answer your question. To add to the list,I don't know the full nuts and bolts of the revolving loan.As cash has previously been borrowed against this year's S/T income,then quite obviously elements of this will be paying off the loan,in a close season period when wages etc still have to be paid.What we don't know is how early,and to what extent,we can start borrowing against the 13/14 S/T income. For any who think this little arrangement is a great idea,then I'd point out that there's the small matter of interest to be paid,which effectively loses us more than a "Coutts" every year-if we started paying the GSE interest,then you could add another to the list. On takeover,AP boasted that the deal would secure our finances for years to come-not sure he mentioned we might do it by slashing the players' wage budget to the extent that it would be uncompetitive in relation to top clubs (not even sure we're now competitive mid table). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Steady on,I've never said I know information to the contrary,just that there may be possibilities-it's because of information I don't know that I can't answer your question. To add to the list,I don't know the full nuts and bolts of the revolving loan.As cash has previously been borrowed against this year's S/T income,then quite obviously elements of this will be paying off the loan,in a close season period when wages etc still have to be paid.What we don't know is how early,and to what extent,we can start borrowing against the 13/14 S/T income. For any who think this little arrangement is a great idea,then I'd point out that there's the small matter of interest to be paid,which effectively loses us more than a "Coutts" every year-if we started paying the GSE interest,then you could add another to the list. On takeover,AP boasted that the deal would secure our finances for years to come-not sure he mentioned we might do it by slashing the players' wage budget to the extent that it would be uncompetitive in relation to top clubs (not even sure we're now competitive mid table). Steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 It's all about the Academy now. That's the only real way we're going to maintain any sort of competitive edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Steady. We'll survey the landscape come 31 August.Glick appears to have downgaded from competitive to mid table (v Metgod's bottom 6),and so far we seem to have ditched Green,Shackell,Maguire,Addison and Croft (part) versus 2 lower league recruits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 We'll survey the landscape come 31 August.Glick appears to have downgaded from competitive to mid table (v Metgod's bottom 6),and so far we seem to have ditched Green,Shackell,Maguire,Addison and Croft (part) versus 2 lower league recruits. To be fair, only Shackell played any great part in last season. Green wasn't essential and Maguire, Addison and Croft didn't really feature much anyway. I take the general point though, and we'll also lose Davies at some point. All depends on who replaces them, but I'm not exactly looking forward to this coming season as much as I hoped I would be at the end of last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 To be fair, only Shackell played any great part in last season. Green wasn't essential and Maguire, Addison and Croft didn't really feature much anyway. I take the general point though, and we'll also lose Davies at some point. All depends on who replaces them, but I'm not exactly looking forward to this coming season as much as I hoped I would be at the end of last season. As a guideline,a squad of 20 (chosen merely for mental arithmetic purposes) at an average wage of £4k/wk would give an overall bill of c£4.7m (including ENIC).I can think of several 'below the line' (possible) candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Lets all act against GSE, because we dont agree with their transfer policy of signing players from the lower leagues on pittence wages, whilst the rest of the division splashes the cash on tried and trusted premiership and championship players on bigger wages. We'll never be able to sign Keogh, or infact any player when there is competition from bigger clubs like Cardiff and Leeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 We'll survey the landscape come 31 August.Glick appears to have downgaded from competitive to mid table (v Metgod's bottom 6),and so far we seem to have ditched Green,Shackell,Maguire,Addison and Croft (part) versus 2 lower league recruits. Brayford, Bailey, Naylor and Steve Davies were all lower league recruits. Given that we have only really gone for players from the lower leagues recently, I'm not sure why there's more scepticism. There's a while to go. Like you say, probably wise to survey the landscape in August... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Steady on,I've never said I know information to the contrary,just that there may be possibilities-it's because of information I don't know that I can't answer your question. To add to the list,I don't know the full nuts and bolts of the revolving loan.As cash has previously been borrowed against this year's S/T income,then quite obviously elements of this will be paying off the loan,in a close season period when wages etc still have to be paid.What we don't know is how early,and to what extent,we can start borrowing against the 13/14 S/T income. For any who think this little arrangement is a great idea,then I'd point out that there's the small matter of interest to be paid,which effectively loses us more than a "Coutts" every year-if we started paying the GSE interest,then you could add another to the list. On takeover,AP boasted that the deal would secure our finances for years to come-not sure he mentioned we might do it by slashing the players' wage budget to the extent that it would be uncompetitive in relation to top clubs (not even sure we're now competitive mid table). Isn't the season ticket facility an overdraft secured on season ticket sales rather than a loan meaning there won't be any interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 As a guideline,a squad of 20 (chosen merely for mental arithmetic purposes) at an average wage of £4k/wk would give an overall bill of c£4.7m (including ENIC).I can think of several 'below the line' (possible) candidates. GK - Fielding, Legzdins DEF - Brayford, Roberts, Buxton, OB, Naylor MID - Bryson, B Davies, Hendrick, Coutts, Jacobs ATT - Tyson, Ward, Robinson Assuming Bailey and S Davies to leave, Ball going out on-loan, and presumably Barker's wages being covered through insurance. Without relying on the youngsters (Bennett, Lelan, Galinski, Hughes), that still leaves 5 positions to fill. At this point I'd consider Doyle and Deeney to be surplus to requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Isn't the season ticket facility an overdraft secured on season ticket sales rather than a loan meaning there won't be any interest? The DCFC 10/11 accounts show interest payable of £1.008m.The PP loan is said to be 2.5% over base,which implies c£450k.A quick hop to Gellaw 10/11 indicates £294k for the GSE loan,so the balance is? (I've missed out a small amount re pref shares).In any event,it's clearly identified as a loan in the accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Brayford, Bailey, Naylor and Steve Davies were all lower league recruits. Given that we have only really gone for players from the lower leagues recently, I'm not sure why there's more scepticism. There's a while to go. Like you say, probably wise to survey the landscape in August... Just pointing out that the part of my earlier post that you highlighted might not be far fetched.Nothing to do with scepticism,just possible fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Brayford, Bailey, Naylor and Steve Davies were all lower league recruits. Given that we have only really gone for players from the lower leagues recently, I'm not sure why there's more scepticism. There's a while to go. Like you say, probably wise to survey the landscape in August... Tyson, shackell, fielding and Robinson were all recruited last season from teams in or above the same league as us. Plus the official line has always been there is money there if needed, which this season has changed to our youth is coming through and needing to generate revenue to spend. Seems like a big shift to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.shilton Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 oh B4, the worm turns. We sold Shackell- so what? I can't believe that this has caused a u turn. I am happy with the way things are going- lets wait until we have a few games under our belts and the transfer window is closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Tyson, shackell, fielding and Robinson were all recruited last season from teams in or above the same league as us. Plus the official line has always been there is money there if needed, which this season has changed to our youth is coming through and needing to generate revenue to spend. Seems like a big shift to me. So basically, we've bought players from the league above, same league, and leagues below. We happen to have bought two players from leagues below. If we buy a player from the same league, does this 'big shift' swing back? In reality, there is no big shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 So basically, we've bought players from the league above, same league, and leagues below. We happen to have bought two players from leagues below. If we buy a player from the same league, does this 'big shift' swing back? In reality, there is no big shift. Im just replying to your post where you said "Given that we have only really gone for players from the lower leagues recently, I'm not sure why there's more scepticism." I just pointed out this is not entirely true. Also as I said, and in previous season we had money available for "barker" type signings, this season we have to sell our "barker" type signings to fund new players arriving. So given our net spend this year will either be level or negative, against previous years where we have 750k and 1M pounds players arriving, is this not a big shift, or am I missing something ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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