Leeds Ram Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 United have spent big in the past, Manchester city have spent grotesquely that doesn't magically offset the big spending united have engaged in with quite a few players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 your right, the Glazers aren't financially troubled despite quite a few of their malls closing up in the past couple of years and them securing loans partly against the clubs assets to secure ownership of the club,which now means the club is horribly in debt. Your also correct that manchester united don't have a debt problem, even though everyone else recognizes it...... obviously I don't know what insolvency means,even though the definition means that you can't meet your debt payments. I stated they are close to what is classified as insolvency because despite the sale of a 80 million pound player they only made a 21 million pound profit. That means that without that they would have been short of paying the debt interest payments, commonly called insolvency. There are problems with united, when you have that much debt it is a problem. I have already stated they won't fail, but it is a problem for them. Of course it's a problem for them as they can't buy the calibre of player they need to stay at the top of European Football they are servicing the Glazer debt and bringing that down. Glazer is now in a great position he could sell the club which now generates even more income and trading profit than when he took it over and make enough money to clear his United debts and make some dent in his mess in America. The club is in no way insolvent it has met all its loan repayments and the size of those loan debts is on the way down. The club is fantastically run financially it is owned not run by the Glazer family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Well first of all I never claimed it was insolvent, just that it has been struggling to turn a profit because of the debts, the debt repayments are massive and difficult to service because of the big interest rate of 16.25% on the debt. Much of the debt is secured against the club not against Glazer himself, around 260 million was put against the family. . While earlier in the year the debt was at the biggest level it had been since the takeover at over a billion dollars, a good deal of it was refinanced within a bond structure. Glazer has no buyer because of his outlandish evaluation of the club ( which is still saddled with debt) which put a consortium called the red knights off. Manchester united was previously declared debt free, still in debt, massive repayments which is will find it harder and harder to service, the debt they cannot pay off in any way just the interest, a complicated capitalization of the club using bonds and the like. To me Manchester United are not well run, they had to recapitalise and some debt is still there. "Under the terms of the Glazers' refinancing, as they were unable to repay bondholders by 16 August 2010, the overall interest rate on the loans rose from 14.25% to 16.25%, resulting in annual payments of around £38 million.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United#cite_note-payment_rise-22]"'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United#cite_note-payment_rise-22]"[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United#cite_note-payment_rise-22][23] "the ability of the Glazers to pay themselves 50% of the Consolidated Net Income of the club every year." "These include the carving out of £95 million in cash, the sale and lease-back of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafford_Training_Centre]Trafford Training Centre at [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington,_Greater_Manchester]Carrington" http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/15/manchester-united-increase-turnover-finance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Also the cash reserves of the club dwindled earlier this year from 115 million to 65 million, because of a partial buy back of the 500 million bond released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Look at attendance figures for the last 70 years not hard to find. I'll say it again there will be few if any who have been to as many Derby matches as me. I was brought up as a young kid in Manchester but support Derby and always have as my Mum's side was from Derbyshire and my Uncle took me to the BBG as a young kid and I was hooked. Even then I thought Old Trafford was cold and lacking in atmosphere and I was thought of as some kind of alien amongst all the United supporting kids, I went through the semi in 76 and still stayed with Derby inspite of all the stick so my loyalty is not in question. If you ask me who I want to win the PL though it's United every time but I don't like London clubs and I dislike Liverpool more than Forest after a mate of mine got slashed there in 87. If United don't win it City is next choice. Ian, you stated, that manuare fans outnumbered City fans 4 to 1 and that there were plenty of surveys to back this up, so once again just in case you dont quite understand, please provide me to a link with this. Yes Manures attendance is higher, because they have a higher percentage of people attending from outside Manchester, so back to your original point, can you back it up, or are you just making stuff up ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 If the fans are so fickle how come they had the highest gates in the country when they were crap and it was Liverpool who were the boss team. Yes plenty of plastics have jumped on the bandwaggon in the SKY years but I see as many kids wearing Liverpool colours as I do United wherever you go. So again I hope you have learned something. So what about 1992, 1989 & 1988, when Manure were not the top team and their attendance dropped and they were no longer the best supported team as they werent winning the league, I know it was a lot harder to travel to games from down south so maybe thats it. The fact is that Manure have a lot of glory hunters who follow them because of this, you for example are a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I love a good fact although I'm slightly disappointed as there's been a number of 'facts' produced in this thread without any actual evidence to back them up. Sadly its just a bunch of opinions trying to be passed off as facts on Man Utd. Who do I see to claim my 5 minutes of life back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 Ian, you stated, that manuare fans outnumbered City fans 4 to 1 and that there were plenty of surveys to back this up, so once again just in case you dont quite understand, please provide me to a link with this. Yes Manures attendance is higher, because they have a higher percentage of people attending from outside Manchester, so back to your original point, can you back it up, or are you just making stuff up ? There have been loads of surveys done over the years pre internet as well, I don't need to do anymore than tell you that in 1939 or 1960 or any other random year there were thousands travelling from outside the area to watch football it was mainly local back then. There is a website Republik of Mancunia, which charts attendances from the 40's and compared City and United up to 1992 pre SKY, when the game changed and all the glory-hunters emerged, United from early 70's apart from a couple of years always had the best attendances in the country and from the 70's to the early 90's they were mainly ***** and the vast majority of that support back then was local. What I can tell you and you don't need to be a genius to work this out is the proportion of Manchester people, particularly young people who support United over City has gone up not down as United have finally become successful and most of the big City heartlands are not in the City of Manchester, they do have some in the South and East but the overwhelming majority support in the city is red and Salford is even more so. I have lived there I have worked there in schools and junior football all over the city and it is minimum 70:30 United and most areas more than that. Where I was brought up it was extremely rare to find anybody who didn't support United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 So what about 1992, 1989 & 1988, when Manure were not the top team and their attendance dropped and they were no longer the best supported team as they werent winning the league, I know it was a lot harder to travel to games from down south so maybe thats it. The fact is that Manure have a lot of glory hunters who follow them because of this, you for example are a prime example. They didn't win the league for 26 years from 67 to 93, so what about the other years 1992 was when they pulled down the old Stretford end and capacity was reduced. The other two years the Liverpool pipped them but they had their best ever team in terms of entertainment and United were boring back then. They do have a lot of glory hunters now and they have multiplied since the Glazer takeover they don't just come from down South but Ireland, Scotland, Yorkshire everywhere. A large proportion of local loyal fans have either been priced out most ST's at Old Trafford will cost you well over a grand with compulsory cup purchases, most of Manchester is very poor, or simply won't go while the Glazer's are there. The home and now away support is now a shadow of what it was even 6 years ago. If United dropped down my guess a lot of these new fans would take flight. As for the personal comments against me I'll treat them with contempt and keep educating and informing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 To slag Citeh off for corporate behaviour is absolutely taking the piss. United invented corporatism in English football. Playing meaningless matches abroad for money instead of competing in the FA Cup WTF was that all about? That is the reason that FC United exist. That is the reason that thousands of fans wore the colours of Newton Heath (Manchester United's original name). The mardarse fans of manure cannot take the fact that Manchester City have/are doing to them, what they did to Liverpool. I.E., take over due to being richer. It really is that simple. Manure started it, Chelsea joined in, now Manchester City want to play.....money, money, money........its a rich mans world! If Citeh dominate for the next 10 years then the red shirts will slowly fade into blue.............. Us? we'll still be Derby. Again most of that post is totally wrong, the matches abroad were the World Club Championship, hardly meaningless and the FA wanted United to play it to help the World Cup bid. As the dates clashed with the FA Cup the choice was either reorginise the whole FA Cup or United miss it for a year. The reason FC United exist is the Glazer takeover, United lost 3,000 of its most loyal fans through this in one hit. The Newton Heath was a Glazer protest, which would never work because the Glazer's use United as a cash cow and will sell when it suits them and the only protest that would work is empty seats. The takeover from Liverpool was not money at all Liverpool were already in decline when United started to dominate and since then have spent far more on players than United,a lot wasted by managers who promised much but fell short. City are nowhere near taking over and face the massive FFP problem. Chelsea looked as if they might for a while but United came back and overtook them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 There have been loads of surveys done over the years pre internet as well, I don't need to do anymore than tell you that in 1939 or 1960 or any other random year there were thousands travelling from outside the area to watch football it was mainly local back then. There is a website Republik of Mancunia, which charts attendances from the 40's and compared City and United up to 1992 pre SKY, when the game changed and all the glory-hunters emerged, United from early 70's apart from a couple of years always had the best attendances in the country and from the 70's to the early 90's they were mainly ***** and the vast majority of that support back then was local. What I can tell you and you don't need to be a genius to work this out is the proportion of Manchester people, particularly young people who support United over City has gone up not down as United have finally become successful and most of the big City heartlands are not in the City of Manchester, they do have some in the South and East but the overwhelming majority support in the city is red and Salford is even more so. I have lived there I have worked there in schools and junior football all over the city and it is minimum 70:30 United and most areas more than that. Where I was brought up it was extremely rare to find anybody who didn't support United. But you are wrong, the last survery done in 2002 does not back you up at all, you can easily look that up on the internet, Im sure a man who claims to be educating us all can do that, so once again if you are educating us, please show me where you get your facts from, or admit that there is nothing to back you up. Remember you claim that only 20% of fans in Manchester support Man City, I am not talking attendances that cannot be argued, but the great myth that you talk about. Maybe that bloke who writes for the local rag that makes stuff up can help you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 But you are wrong, the last survery done in 2002 does not back you up at all, you can easily look that up on the internet, Im sure a man who claims to be educating us all can do that, so once again if you are educating us, please show me where you get your facts from, or admit that there is nothing to back you up. Remember you claim that only 20% of fans in Manchester support Man City, I am not talking attendances that cannot be argued, but the great myth that you talk about. Maybe that bloke who writes for the local rag that makes stuff up can help you ? I said the likely ratio in the City of Manchester was 20% and I will stand by that, the survey you were talking about was done on Season Ticket holders nobody else, even for ST holders more Mancunians had United ST'S and at that time they were hard to come by with huge over subscription at United. At City anyone could get one. Why are you so concerned with facts and twist every word to try and make me look a ****. The attendances over time demonstrate who since WW2 have been the more popular club in Manchester that has got more and more since first the Munich disaster and the sustained success of United. I know the town and the area I would doubt you do, I also worked for a while in Liverpool and you don't have to be there long either to know that they are the most popular club there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansea ram Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Liverpool have had bigger crowds than in 1962, 63, 64, 66, 71, 72, 88, 93. Couldn't be bothered to look any further back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 Liverpool have had bigger crowds than in 1962, 63, 64, 66, 71, 72, 88, 93. Couldn't be bothered to look any further back. Manchester City didn't though did they. Since 73 United have had the biggest gates every season in England but for 3 seasons and one of those seasons was due to ground redevelopment and for most of the 70's and 80's they were underachievers winning the odd FA Cup. Nowhere near the power they have been in the last 20 years. They even went down. So anybody who labels all United fans glory hunters is wrong as when they were crap they still most of the time were the biggest supported club in Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
froggg Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 they're still a bunch of glory hunting tossers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 A lot of public house talk being spouted here.....mostly from a manure sympathiser! I think what ianm should have put up 8 pages was the following: [url=http://swns.com/taken-as-red-three-quarters-of-manchester-residents-are-united-supporters-181707.html]http://swns.com/taken-as-red-three-quarters-of-manchester-residents-are-united-supporters-181707.html 500 is way too short for me though for this to be taken seriously.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansea ram Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 A lot of public house talk being spouted here.....mostly from a manure sympathiser! I think what ianm should have put up 8 pages was the following: [url=http://swns.com/taken-as-red-three-quarters-of-manchester-residents-are-united-supporters-181707.html]http://swns.com/take...ers-181707.html 500 is way too short for me though for this to be taken seriously.. And this survey was taken the day after they had beaten Marseille at home in the Champions League Q/F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Most people in Manchester support FC United. Bye x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansea ram Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Most people in Manchester support FC United. Bye x 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> They were not asked that though, just in case the majority said yes. Now that would have been funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nookiebear Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 "United fans have always called it the Council House since City moved in" says it all mate! republik of mancunia???manchester united blog???like thats gunna be completely non biased? ian you are on the wrong forum! and as for the fact youve been to more derby matches than most people on here...it doesnt really matter mate its whats in your heart that counts and as youve gladly educated us all on here...we all know about you now 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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