The All new Clough out poll thread

[blackNwhites]

Moxey can play upfront if needs be. Cywka can play upfront if needs be. Brayford can play centre defence if needs be. Leacock right back. Central midfielders can be played on the wing if needs be. This is the problem. No sufficient back up (board) combined with Clough (manager) not playing players in their natural positions. Its just not acceptable on either score.

Commons is worth 300k in season tickets sales alone. People pay to see players like him, whatever their attitude, if we want to see grafters and triers you can go down to the local park. I feel the board have done themselves a serious disservice by selling Commons, I don't think it made business sense. To me business sense would be making the fans feel the club is moving forward by getting results on the pitch in the latter third of the season making people want to buy ST's next year. KK here would certainly have helped the situation. Now it seems the board and manager have wrote any ambition off whatsoever for this campaign and the sole aim is survival. They think we have enough in the locker to stay up without KK so why not sell? I think it could come back to bite them as we punters (as a majority) don't give a crap about "business sense" when we see raw talent on a football pitch. Because if that isn't being met we won't renew.

I completely agree. We think the board are too tight, that they should have offered Commons what he wanted when he asked for it. Yes?

Is it Clough that sets the wage budget? The transfer budget? No, it's the board. They have no idea how to even sustain a club in the Championship let alone make it to the premier league.

Are Cloughs hands tied? Yes. He can't even look for an established player from this league or the one higher up because they're always going to be out of our range, even some players from the lower leagues are out of our range.

Nothing anyone can do in this world or the next would fair better than what Clough is doing now, maybe an extra point here or a lost point there, but we'd be in the same spot.

[Alex W]

Commons doesn't deserve the wage that he gets, or atleast wouldn't have in this league.

It was right that he was sold. Look how he was against Forest, barely turned up because he was afraid of injury. I couldn't have wached him perform like that for six months, and neither could Nigel i'd imagine.

Better to get rid and get some sort of fee for him.

[DCFC_4_LIFE]

You guys are crazy! whos going to be better and care about derby more than clough! idiots! If we got rid he'll only end up taking over at forest and winning something!

Fergie and wenger were given time! Cloughs better than jewell etc...

[blackNwhites]

If the mission is to build a team of young players, lower league players etc to give us a platform then we need a manager who can encourage and develop those players.

Nigel has clearly given up on the likes of Moxey and Cywka. These were the players he brought in but he doesn't have the man management skills to develop them. Game over.

[sIZE=4]He has lost the plot.[/sIZE]

We must move on.

Yes the team needs some investment but it also needs a manager with the character to get on with, encourage, teach, coach, cajole the players.

All of the above could do this.

Nigel can't.

You're wishful thinking.

As if Clough bullies his squad, lol. There is only so much encouragement, teaching, cajoling (that is what Clough did today, with Cywka) a manager can do. If a player does not communicate, they are the weakness and they will not improve.

Somebody said earlier than Palace kept a clean sheet and that Moxey will be pleased with himself with disregard for other defenders, and not actually seeing the game. He's still the same player that was in a squad that kept a few clean sheets here.

Clough hasn't had a chance here in my opinion, and the opinion of some people here RE:Clough is ridiculous.

[SillyBilly]

Well my point is, playing devil's advocate ofcourse, is that even though Clough's hands are tied behind his back with the funds he has been given and the wage strucutre is he allowed to work with then why are we not looking like a top 10 team which is surely where we're operating financially. It seems people are crediting Clough just for paying less for the same results even though we're still compartively big spenders within the league. I say compartively because I would think GSE were doing an ok job if there plan was to maintain us as an established Champ side but given the fan base rightly or wrongly expects to be promotion challengers then we're going to need substantial investment at some point.

[blackNwhites]

Well my point is, playing devil's advocate ofcourse, is that even though Clough's hands are tied behind his back with the funds he has been given and the wage strucutre is he allowed to work with then why are we not looking like a top 10 team which is surely where we're operating financially. It seems people are crediting Clough just for paying less for the same results even though we're still compartively big spenders within the league. I say compartively because I would think GSE were doing an ok job if there plan was to maintain us as an established Champ side but given the fan base rightly or wrongly expects to be promotion challengers then we're going to need substantial investment at some point.

You can give a player A a wage but it doesn't make him better than the next guy, player B, who earns less than half of player A.

Roberto Savagio - James Bailey/Addison.

Pearson - Ben Davies, Steve Davies, Cywka.

I doubt we're very high up the wage bill table, and if we are, there can't be much difference between us and those 'below' us.

[rammieib]

BlackNWhite -

Clough hasn't had a chance here in my opinion, and the opinion of some people here is ridiculous.

No I think you are wrong - over half of people who have voted on this poll have said Clough out - therefore, at least half of people here do believe he has had a chance. To call people ridiculous is therefore wrong in my opinion.

For my own two pence worth. I don't like him because:

A) He plays people out of position

B) He continually insults the players in public after games

C) He has not once acknowledged any of his own mistakes in games

D) He's never once apologised to the supporters

E) I don't believe he is making players 'better' with his and his coaching staff's training. (I think the run this season was lucky because if you look at the form for the season, that run was uncharacteristic like)

F) Although I really dislike GSE, I don't believe the salary of the team out on the pitch each week is any different from 70% of the teams we face every week

G) The quality of the football is generally poor and his overall win record is no close to 30%. I find this very disheartening that we are now getting wins less than one in three matches.

H) I think he is a very defensive coach, preferrign players to stay back rather than players to go forward

So for me - I don't support him. I also think if we had gone in for players sooner, we would have got them. If Clough had said to Glick - Go and get Connor Salmon just after he rejected Ssausagehorpe, I think he would be playing for us - so although Glick I find to be a poor CEO, Glough could be more commerically astute.

[RamNut]

As if Clough bullies his squad, lol.

sorry....what happened today........someone explain it to him.

[Alex W]

How on earth Clough can say 'Go get Sammon' when he hasn't seen him play himself is beyond me.

Scouts say, "This person is good" and the manager goes to look at him. The first chance Clough had to do this was two days before the transfer window closed.

It couldn't have been done any sooner.

[rammieib]

Alex - You're very naieve if you don't believe Managers do not have tabs on targets all season. Sammon will have been watched numerous occasions both live (By Cloughs' Brothers Scouting team!) and on tape by Clough himself. He probably watches 20 matches a week with an eye on players and opposition, and the same for everyone on the Coaching Staff.

We were desperate for a striker, even when Commons was still here - but Clough wanted to watch him one more time. Therefore, waiting this long was a mistake, it went against him and another reason why I don't want him!!

[Alex W]

Alex - You're very naieve if you don't believe Managers do not have tabs on targets all season. Sammon will have been watched numerous occasions both live (By Cloughs' Brothers Scouting team!) and on tape by Clough himself. He probably watches 20 matches a week with an eye on players and opposition, and the same for everyone on the Coaching Staff.

We were desperate for a striker, even when Commons was still here - but Clough wanted to watch him one more time. Therefore, waiting this long was a mistake, it went against him and another reason why I don't want him!!

We were not linked with him at all until the Ssausagehorpe bid, he may have been watched but every manager wants to watch a player themselves.

Sir Alex Ferguson watches every player himself first before signing them, and hes got possibly the best scouts in the world.

He went to watch him himself, spoke to them the next day and bid the day after. I have no idea how this could have been done any sooner.

[blackNwhites]

BlackNWhite -

No I think you are wrong - over half of people who have voted on this poll have said Clough out - therefore, at least half of people here do believe he has had a chance. To call people ridiculous is therefore wrong in my opinion.

For my own two pence worth. I don't like him because:

A) He plays people out of position

B) He continually insults the players in public after games

C) He has not once acknowledged any of his own mistakes in games

D) He's never once apologised to the supporters

E) I don't believe he is making players 'better' with his and his coaching staff's training. (I think the run this season was lucky because if you look at the form for the season, that run was uncharacteristic like)

F) Although I really dislike GSE, I don't believe the salary of the team out on the pitch each week is any different from 70% of the teams we face every week

G) The quality of the football is generally poor and his overall win record is no close to 30%. I find this very disheartening that we are now getting wins less than one in three matches.

H) I think he is a very defensive coach, preferrign players to stay back rather than players to go forward

So for me - I don't support him. I also think if we had gone in for players sooner, we would have got them. If Clough had said to Glick - Go and get Connor Salmon just after he rejected Ssausagehorpe, I think he would be playing for us - so although Glick I find to be a poor CEO, Glough could be more commerically astute.

A - He's played them out of position due to the lack of squad size and injuries sustained, suspensions and the one error os playing Leacock at right back against Forest.

B - I don't like that either (in public domain, because it seems to give those who don't like him more fodder), but can see why he does it. Doesn't really matter where he does it at the end of the day. If he thinks they deserve an ear bashing they're getting one.

C - I don't believe that. I think this is something the fans have created because he to often slates a player in public. He is the manager, if you don't do as he asks, it's the players fault.

D - For what?

E - Same as C really, you ask players to do something you expect them to do it. Brayford, Bailey, Addison have all played well for him, and hopefully the 2 Davies will respond well to Clough.

F - It's dropped, massively. A huge shake up. That's difficult to contend with. The top teams spend much more than us, and are allowed to scout where they want. I don't think Clough is. Whenever he's gone in for a player, the board f*** about until the last minute and lose out.

G - The quality has been poor for a while, since we lost the loans of Fielding, Moore and Kuqi. I agree, but, i blame the players for the lack of understanding from the management.

H - I disagree, i think he'd like us to be more attacking but since we have no decent attacking option to score goals for us it appears that we are to defensive.

I also think Clough DID say, go get Sammon as soon as he rejected Ssausagehorpe, but Glick didn't, he waited and waited and Wigan stepped in.

Those are just some of the reasons i think the Clough out brigade are wrong. I think if we bought a new manager in, you'd say the exact same thing about them.

The 'It's about his name, Clough' argument from the anti Clough people is also ridiculous, because it's more about the name for them than it is for the Clough in people.

For the Clough in people, it's about the lack of form in certain players, the injuries/suspensions and the lack of investment from GSE.

[blackNwhites]

sorry....what happened today........someone explain it to him.

You explain it, i've asked you to explain your comments a few times and each time you have failed.

I see it as cajoling, something you yourself said.

[rammieib]

BlackNWhite

A - He's played them out of position due to the lack of squad size and injuries sustained, suspensions and the one error os playing Leacock at right back against Forest.

B - I don't like that either (in public domain, because it seems to give those who don't like him more fodder), but can see why he does it. Doesn't really matter where he does it at the end of the day. If he thinks they deserve an ear bashing they're getting one.

C - I don't believe that. I think this is something the fans have created because he to often slates a player in public. He is the manager, if you don't do as he asks, it's the players fault.

D - For what?

E - Same as C really, you ask players to do something you expect them to do it. Brayford, Bailey, Addison have all played well for him, and hopefully the 2 Davies will respond well to Clough.

F - It's dropped, massively. A huge shake up. That's difficult to contend with. The top teams spend much more than us, and are allowed to scout where they want. I don't think Clough is. Whenever he's gone in for a player, the board f*** about until the last minute and lose out.

G - The quality has been poor for a while, since we lost the loans of Fielding, Moore and Kuqi. I agree, but, i blame the players for the lack of understanding from the management.

H - I disagree, i think he'd like us to be more attacking but since we have no decent attacking option to score goals for us it appears that we are to defensive.

Fair responses - thats the beauty of people having different opinions, and I respect them.

A) I don't believe injuries/suspensions caused this but thats an opinion.

B) Think we partially agree here, I'm not a fan of this management. I wouldn't want my boss criticising me in my company for the mistakes I make. Would totally demoralise me and make me want to leave.

C) I'd appreciate our manager, whoever he is, if he did come out and say I got it wrong - The example of Forest away is the eprfect example.

D) As above

E) If players don't do it, then do we blame the players or manager. Fair enough if you want to blame the players but I don't - I blame the management.

F) For clarity - Yes it has dropped but what I am referring to is the total salary of the 11 players out on the pitch. Certainly before Commons left, I reckon if you add up the salaries of the 11 players on the pitch - it would be comparable to many in the decision. Thats what I was getting at.

G) OK

H) Refuses to let both full backs go up, two defensive midfielders, Keeping 4 back to mark 1 at set pieces, regularly a lack of players in the box in open play and short corners in the 90th Minute.

But respect your opinion. You're just wrong hehe

[Belper Bear]

You explain it, i've asked you to explain your comments a few times and each time you have failed.

I see it as cajoling, something you yourself said.

That was not cajoling

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Cajole

[RamNut]

You explain it, i've asked you to explain your comments a few times and each time you have failed.

I see it as cajoling, something you yourself said.

i answered you?

cajoling !...most people have been appalled by his comments.

Look we all wanted Nigel to succeed. In my opinion his character has been found wanting.

He is fundamentally flawed.

I take no joy from concluding that he should go before he does any more damage,

[blackNwhites]

BlackNWhite

Fair responses - thats the beauty of people having different opinions, and I respect them.

A) I don't believe injuries/suspensions caused this but thats an opinion.

B) Think we partially agree here, I'm not a fan of this management. I wouldn't want my boss criticising me in my company for the mistakes I make. Would totally demoralise me and make me want to leave.

C) I'd appreciate our manager, whoever he is, if he did come out and say I got it wrong - The example of Forest away is the eprfect example.

D) As above

E) If players don't do it, then do we blame the players or manager. Fair enough if you want to blame the players but I don't - I blame the management.

F) For clarity - Yes it has dropped but what I am referring to is the total salary of the 11 players out on the pitch. Certainly before Commons left, I reckon if you add up the salaries of the 11 players on the pitch - it would be comparable to many in the decision. Thats what I was getting at.

G) OK

H) Refuses to let both full backs go up, two defensive midfielders, Keeping 4 back to mark 1 at set pieces, regularly a lack of players in the box in open play and short corners in the 90th Minute.

But respect your opinion. You're just wrong hehe

haha, fwiw, i can see where you're coming from. I just don't blame Clough, i sympathise with the restraints he works under. You can only tell a Cywka or Moxey so many times you want this that and the other, but if they don't deliver they are clearly not communicating/compromising with the manager.

Brayford was allowed to roam forward, still is, he just doesn't have the same support from the Cywkas, Buenos, Greens etc.. Those 3 are under performing.

In our good run, those players were linking up beautifully and are not now. What gives?

I don't think a new manager would make the slight bit of difference, if anything it will go against us.

[blackNwhites]

That was not cajoling

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Cajole

lol

Ok, i mean coax.

Actually, i think he's just given Cywka a warning. Do that again, and you're out.

We don't know what happens in training, reserve matches. This is something i learned when a sunday league player, if we're winning and the ball is in our half, clear it.

[rammieib]

In our good run, those players were linking up beautifully and are not now. What gives?

Million Dollar Question - Certain players who were in the team then who gave others more confidence? (i.e Fielding)?

Introducing players back into the team? i.e Pearson, Bywater?

Players losing confidence because of the mistakes so the freedom to play has gone?

There is no right answer to the question - Like you, I can only give my opinion and then place the blame.

My own annoyance at the moment is that roughly half the fans want Clough out, the other half want the board out and I think we can count on one hand the amount of people who still support both. Therefore - it may be difficult to get a groundswell of support to force one or the other to happen.

[blackNwhites]

Million Dollar Question - Certain players who were in the team then who gave others more confidence? (i.e Fielding)?

Introducing players back into the team? i.e Pearson, Bywater?

Players losing confidence because of the mistakes so the freedom to play has gone?

There is no right answer to the question - Like you, I can only give my opinion and then place the blame.

My own annoyance at the moment is that roughly half the fans want Clough out, the other half want the board out and I think we can count on one hand the amount of people who still support both. Therefore - it may be difficult to get a groundswell of support to force one or the other to happen.

Rather than Fielding, i'd say Kuqi. His hold up play must have been magnificent, the likes of Commons, Bueno, Cywka, Green able to run onto balls he knocked down to them, or whilst he held it up for them to get into space. Porter never did that. Moore was more of a run onto a pass kind of forward, rather than holding it up.

My annoyance is also that half the fans want Clough out and that they might get their wish, without him having any decent backing from the board apart from the usual "He's our man" schizzle.

I would love for him to get the backing financially. If he doesn't, and the fans continue this way i wouldn't blame him for leaving, and would wish him well wherever he goes.