RamOfKansas Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Has anyone here read "The Hunger Games"? Movie comes out soon, I'm quite eager for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Arguably by Christopher Hitchens, a collection of his essays, and I am going to purchase mortality which is his collection of essays he wrote while he was suffering with cancer. Blimey, that's heavy stuff YR. I admire you, I really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Blimey, that's heavy stuff YR. I admire you, I really do. It's not actually that heavy 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> and thank you 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I think almost everyone has an admirable character which we all should appreciate within ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 A Night to Remember - by Walter Lord Later turned into a movie, and apparently the inspiration for much of the better parts of Cameron's movie. Easily the best telling of the story. Published 40 years after the incident Lord meticulously spent time with as many of the survivors as he could, pulling together their accounts and providing a coherant narrative of the events on the fateful night. He speculates as little as possible and essentially lets the accounts speak for themselves, casting doubt where he deems appropriate. I think it's about 240 pages in length, but says far, far more about the incident then either movie, or any other movie or book on the subject. I'd recommend anyone with even a passing interest in the subject to pick this up - currently on offer in Tesco - £3.85 or 2 for £7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Mmmm, wouldn't mind reading that meself, ta Staffs, I'll look out for it. Anything to do with Titanic I find really interesting and for some reason I'm always drawn to the stories of the steerage passengers, poor souls. Looking forward to the History channel programmes coming up in the next fortnight, they have a few lined up. Just found this one too coming up on National Geographic. [url=http://www.natgeotv.com/uk/titanic-the-final-word-with-james-cameron]http://www.natgeotv.com/uk/titanic-the-final-word-with-james-cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Speaking of Cameron, we watched Ghosts of the Abyss last night - it's a documentary around Cameron's dives to the Titanic with Bill Paxton ahead of them filming the movie. It's a fascinating examination of the ship as it now lies on the seabed, and many of the shots were actually used in the movie. Interstingly, at the end, when they're beginning their final ascent after the final dive they quote the date - 13th September 2001, aka 9/11. Re the steerage/third class experience on the Titanic - one of the things in the book that struck me was the incredible heroism shown by so many on that night. Even in what must have been terrifying circumstances a level or order and discipline was maintained. People in steerage had the toughest time of it, kept off the deck until late on - there are some accounts of order breaking down once they got up onto the decks, but you have to give them a lot of latitude on this point. Easier to be heroic when the boat's still well afloat and there are lifeboats being loaded. Less so when you get onto the deck, like the steerage passengers did and all of the lifeboats were away. I believe, that only the collapsibles were left at that point. That must have been such a desperate situation. Heart-breaking really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 It was despicable what happened in 3rd class in Titanic, one only has to look at the death figures it would make anyones blood boil. I have read fatherland by Robert Harris and Lord of the flies this weekend, Lord of the flies a modern classic and deservedly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think that's why I'm more inclined to read the steerage passengers' stories, they were so treated so appallingly. Shocking. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Thing is though, at the time, no one actually had a problem with it. The rich didn't care because it was beneath them, the media didn't care because they only cared about the socialites, and those in steerage themselves didn't complain because they saw it as 'par for the course' and what was, at the time, expected. At the inquiries afterwards only 2 people from steerage gave evidence, and it was largely dismissed, not due to direct prejudice, instead because they just didn't think it important. The book also points out that the Titanic disaster was pretty much one of the inspirations for the end of this way of thinking (along with the war shortly afterwards). At the time, the socialites were seen reverently and lovingly by the public, all of which changed in the after years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Thing is though, at the time, no one actually had a problem with it. The rich didn't care because it was beneath them, the media didn't care because they only cared about the socialites, and those in steerage themselves didn't complain because they saw it as 'par for the course' and what was, at the time, expected. At the inquiries afterwards only 2 people from steerage gave evidence, and it was largely dismissed, not due to direct prejudice, instead because they just didn't think it important. The book also points out that the Titanic disaster was pretty much one of the inspirations for the end of this way of thinking (along with the war shortly afterwards). At the time, the socialites were seen reverently and lovingly by the public, all of which changed in the after years. I know no-one had a problem with it, but still it's very sad that a great many people were still in the bowels of the titanic as it went down. The titanic disaster really put white star line in trouble as well, Mr Ismay was made a pariah in society if I'm correct. The tragedy had far reaching consequences not just for those directly involved like you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Oh I agree entirely. By today's standards it's completely unacceptable. Just proferring the attitude at the time. I believe that the primary grievance of the public at the time was against the number of men that actually got off. Crew was understandable as they were needed to take charge of the lifeboats, but the rest got a hard time afterwards. Especially when you looked at the statisitics. For saying that they effected a 'Women and children first' policy for disembarkation, the stats show that the survival rate of first class men was higher than that of third class women and children. Ismay became a recluse afterwards - retiring from his role with the White Star Line within a year and completely retreating from public life. Sir Cosmo Duff-Gordon also came out of it particularly badly when it was rumoured that he paid the crew and passengers of one of the lifeboats to NOT go back and try and rescue survivors once the ship had gone down. It's easy to see how this rumour came about when you read what happened and what was said, and how it could be construed etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Sadly, the way the steerage passengers were treated is as you say - a normal fact of life and accepted as such. That's awful in itself. What I struggle to deal with is that most of the children down in the ship drowned when at least some of them might have been saved and the fact that there wern't enough lifeboats to start with. But again, there were different laws back then for this weren't there? They didn't have to have enough boats. I don't think many were too concerned though because they thought it was unsinkable! It must have been horrific to witness that happening and not being able to do a single thing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Sadly, the way the steerage passengers were treated is as you say - a normal fact of life and accepted as such. That's awful in itself. What I struggle to deal with is that most of the children down in the ship drowned when at least some of them might have been saved and the fact that there wern't enough lifeboats to start with. But again, there were different laws back then for this weren't there? They didn't have to have enough boats. I don't think many were too concerned though because they thought it was unsinkable! It must have been horrific to witness that happening and not being able to do a single thing about it. As far as I am aware they did have a standard regulation for how many boats should have been aboard but the size of the ship wasn't taken into account. Mr Andrews the ships designer wanted more life boats but was overruled. He died aboard the ship deciding to go down with it. Another problem was that many of the boats weren't full when they were lowered from the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Has anyone here read "The Hunger Games"? Movie comes out soon, I'm quite eager for it. absolute *****. Manage to make what should be an awesome idea into something completely trivial and crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 absolute *****. Manage to make what should be an awesome idea into something completely trivial and crap. the book was based upon battle royal which came out twenty years ago, the hunger games should be old news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamOfKansas Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 absolute *****. Manage to make what should be an awesome idea into something completely trivial and crap. Shrugs I like trivial crap sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaffsRam Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 In terms of the lifeboat regulations at the time the Titanic actually exceeded the minimum requirement. For a ship of that size the minimum was 18 boats. The Titanic actually had 18 + 4 more collapsibles. As YR points out, Andrews argued for more but was overruled, largely due to arrogance - the belief being that the whole issue was moot given that Titanic was 'unsinkable'. Ismay wanted more deck space for the passengers, and he got his way. Again, as YR points out, the problem was just made that much worse due to the boats not being full upon launch. Although there was a policy of 'women and children' adopted, the two senior officers in charge of the disembarkation, namely Lightoller, and Murdoch, had different interpretations - Murdoch loaded the boats with women and children first and then if there were any space left he filled it with men. On the other side of the ship Lightoller took a stricter view of 'women and children ONLY', even to the extent of sending the boats out half full. Despite Murdoch's portrayal in Cameron's movie, the truth was that he actually saved more people than Lightoller as his boats were fuller going into the water. Although I enjoy many parts of Cameron's movie, the insinuation that Murdoch was anything less than heroic is unforgivable - there's absolutely no evidence to support this. After the movie's release 20th Century Fox was so lambasted that the head of the company at the time actually went to Murdoch's home town in Scotland and personally apologized. It also should be said that Lightoller didn't brazenly send out the boats half full without consideration - the theory was that either they could put more people into them from the lower decks as the boats were lowered, or that people would be able to swim to them once they were all in the water. In reality no one could get into the boats on the lower decks as the gangways were shut, and by the time everyone was in the water, the boats were too far away. Lightoller didn't figure on the water being that cold that the average person would only be able to last a few minutes. One exception to this was the Chief Baker - in the Cameron movie, right at the end, when Jack and Rose are hanging onto the stern, there's another fellow, supping away on a tot from a hip flask - this actually happened! The person in question, who's name escapes me now, eventually went into the water (most likely the last person to get off the Titanic - he literally stepped off at the last minute as the stern went down), and survived all through the night until the Carpathia eventually took him onboard. The reason for his survival - the booze that he'd been sipping down prior to leaving the ship kept his body temperature sufficient to survive. Amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I've read about him Staffs, his names Charles Joughin. Never let it be said that a whiskey doesn't keep out the cold! It's very sad to know that while Titanic exceeded the minimum of lifeboats, the fact that even if they had all been filled in the first place a lot of people would still have died. There was just no chance of everyone getting off alive. Found these sites which make for interesting reading (if you haven't already found them) 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> [url=http://www.titanicuniverse.com/]http://www.titanicuniverse.com/ [url=http://titanic-titanic.com/]http://titanic-titanic.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamOfKansas Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Anyone else still confused on why Jack couldn't have fit with Rose on that board she was floating on? for realz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyram Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I always thought that Rok - surely they could have balanced it and each climbed on at opposite sides?? But then, it wouldn't have been quite the same would it? Hollywood law says true hero's die at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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