The Politics Thread 2020

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, Van Gritters said:

I’m sorry if I have miss read your post and made myself look a fool.

No need to apologise mate and you certainly don't look a fool. Rights and wrongs aside, this is as emotive a subject as I can think of and before reining my neck in when the GF fell ill, I wasn't exactly covering myself in glory anyway!

What I would say is that it bothers me that some have suggested that folk are trying to look clever using the deaths of thousands as their makeweight. I think that's pretty unfair as I do fully grasp the counter arguments and accept that it's not as cut and dried as my posts might sometimes infer. 

 

[GboroRam]

9 minutes ago, TramRam said:

Hhhmmm, Back of a Lorry ?

No. Literally hundreds/thousands of cars go between those countries per hour, none of them checked at border control. 

[Gritstone Ram]

30 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

No need to apologise mate and you certainly don't look a fool. Rights and wrongs aside, this is as emotive a subject as I can think of and before reining my neck in when the GF fell ill, I wasn't exactly covering myself in glory anyway!

What I would say is that it bothers me that some have suggested that folk are trying to look clever using the deaths of thousands as their makeweight. I think that's pretty unfair as I do fully grasp the counter arguments and accept that it's not as cut and dried as my posts might sometimes infer. 

 

The last thing I will say on this from a political point is that the Government takes advice about what are the options. It is my belief that no body knew or maybe still doesn’t know the outcome yet. As this gets worse people are shouting why wasn’t more done sooner, and this hasn’t even ended yet. I doubt the government wanted to put people out of work and ruin companies and every option was looked at before we have ended up like we are running up £billions of debt for us all to have to pay back in the future. At what point do you make that decision bearing in mind there was no previous information to go off? I suspect when they realised there was no other option on the table. How long does it take to get to that? Quite quickly when writing on a football forum may be not so quick when you have 70 million people to consider.

[ramit]

32 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

No. Literally hundreds/thousands of cars go between those countries per hour, none of them checked at border control. 

Almost as if the intent is to spread this thing continuously and we can all catch it again and again and be locked down forever, unless we get chipped.

Lovely, just freaking lovely

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

The last thing I will say on this from a political point is that the Government takes advice about what are the options. It is my belief that no body knew or maybe still doesn’t know the outcome yet. As this gets worse people are shouting why wasn’t more done sooner, and this hasn’t even ended yet. I doubt the government wanted to put people out of work and ruin companies and every option was looked at before we have ended up like we are running up £billions of debt for us all to have to pay back in the future. At what point do you make that decision bearing in mind there was no previous information to go off? I suspect when they realised there was no other option on the table. How long does it take to get to that? Quite quickly when writing on a football forum may be not so quick when you have 70 million people to consider.

All valid points. And while it pains me to admit it, given I've rubbished the 'herd immunity project' to the rafters, but there's a still a chance that in the long run, it may need to be revisited.

I'll be back here to take my beats if that's the case! 

 

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Well clearly Mr Johnson and your good self are in agreement then that there was little to be gained from taking any measures at all until COVID-19 was officially declared a pandemic, or in Mr Johnson's case, a further fortnight later still.

We'll also overlook the fact that by the time action was taken here, there were @75,000 recorded cases in Italy alone with death counts running at @5-6k per day as this seems to sit easier with some on here than the alternative view. It's also far easier to just blame the WHO or China or both anyway, so let's run with that instead.

 

EDIT: FWIW 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

 

But I was reliably informed on here less than 4 weeks ago that it wasn't as bad as the flu.

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

But I was reliably informed on here less than 4 weeks ago that it wasn't as bad as the flu.

So many experts... 

[Uptherams]

I dismissed the notion the mortality rate was comparable to seasonsl flu. Turns out it is.

0.1% seasonal flu, as low as 0.1% Covid-19. 

 

[Eddie]

6 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

I dismissed the notion the mortality rate was comparable to seasonsl flu. Turns out it is.

0.1% seasonal flu, as low as 0.1% Covid-19. 

 

Please show your working.

A mortality rate, even by current figures when many of those hospitalised have not yet recovered, and only counting those who died in hospital, would require 16 million people within the UK to have been infected already for there to have been 16,000 deaths (and counting).

[RamNut]

18 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

I dismissed the notion the mortality rate was comparable to seasonsl flu. Turns out it is.

0.1% seasonal flu, as low as 0.1% Covid-19. 

 

Not sure if you’ve faked that, but wherever you got it from, you are being highly selective for some reason.

Quote

According to the CDC, the death rate for seasonal flu is — usually about 0.1% -- is thought to be many times lower than for the coronavirus. The current best estimate for the death rate for coronavirus is 1%.

Quote

COVID-19 is also more deadly than seasonal influenza. The crude mortality rate for COVID-19, based on confirmed cases to date, is currently estimated by the WHO to be between 3-4%, with seasonal influenza sitting well below 0.1%. 

Quote

Mortality rates also appear to be higher for the new coronavirus, although the WHO does warn that the “true mortality of Covid-19 will take some time to fully understand”. Based on current data, the crude mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%—although the actual rate, when including mild cases where people do not get diagnosed,   is likely to be lower. Globally, for seasonal influenza, the WHO estimates the mortality rate is usually below 0.1%.

Quote

Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality will take some time to fully understand, existing data suggest that the mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of reported cases) is between 3-4%. For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%. 

Quote

Few countries with significant testing capacity are reporting mortality rates above 2%, but Italy has proven an outlier. Even with 638 tests given per million people, the country is still reporting a mortality rate of nearly 4%

 

[Uptherams]

4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Not sure if you’ve faked that, but wherever you got it from, you are being highly selective for some reason.

 

Go to the Coronavirus thread ???

[Uptherams]

26 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Please show your working.

A mortality rate, even by current figures when many of those hospitalised have not yet recovered, and only counting those who died in hospital, would require 16 million people within the UK to have been infected already for there to have been 16,000 deaths (and counting).

?? I don't have to. It's not my working. All the information you seek is in the thread you already commented in ?

[Eddie]

43 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

?? I don't have to. It's not my working. All the information you seek is in the thread you already commented in ?

Hmmm.

[GboroRam]

9 hours ago, ramit said:

Almost as if the intent is to spread this thing continuously and we can all catch it again and again and be locked down forever, unless we get chipped.

Lovely, just freaking lovely

Before Covid. I believe there are temporary measures in place but I haven't been this year. The allegation was that Poland and the Netherlands are doing illegal border checks prior to the start of the lockdown. My experience was different. 

[GboroRam]

9 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

The last thing I will say on this from a political point is that the Government takes advice about what are the options. It is my belief that no body knew or maybe still doesn’t know the outcome yet. As this gets worse people are shouting why wasn’t more done sooner, and this hasn’t even ended yet. I doubt the government wanted to put people out of work and ruin companies and every option was looked at before we have ended up like we are running up £billions of debt for us all to have to pay back in the future. At what point do you make that decision bearing in mind there was no previous information to go off? I suspect when they realised there was no other option on the table. How long does it take to get to that? Quite quickly when writing on a football forum may be not so quick when you have 70 million people to consider.

I recall Gordon Brown getting plenty of stick for selling the gold reserves. Are we suggesting it was all his idea? Do you think he took any advice? Or do Labour government decisions sit at their feet but Tory ones don't? 

[Norman]

21 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I recall Gordon Brown getting plenty of stick for selling the gold reserves. Are we suggesting it was all his idea? Do you think he took any advice? Or do Labour government decisions sit at their feet but Tory ones don't? 

Depends if he was advised not to sell the gold.

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Depends if he was advised not to sell the gold.

Are we privy to any of the advice given to ministers? Do we know what the advice of the medical experts was? Do we know if herd immunity was intended as a working plan from the start or is that just supposition?

We don't know. All we know is that there's a number of decisions that in hindsight seem to have been wrong. How about a bit of foresight from the people who desperately wanted our support when they sook out election to the top positions in office? 

You know I'm a Labour supporter, but that doesn't stop me calling out Labour's mistakes. For instance we shouldn't have gone to war based on the very sketchy "sexed up" documents. That was a mistake and it should be called out. Selling our gold reserves was a poor choice. Not introducing more lockdown sooner, not stopping large gatherings more quickly was a mistake. Not being better prepared with PPE is a mistake. It needs calling out.

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

 

Not introducing more lockdown sooner, not stopping large gatherings more quickly was a mistake. Not being better prepared with PPE is a mistake. It needs calling out.

Well, funny you state facts at the bottom of the post. Because they aren't facts. I can give you many reasons why locking down earlier would have caused a lot more issues. Especially in my job where Italy got it all wrong. 

Also, unfortunately I was in the back of an ambulance the other night going to Peterborough hospital on an emergency escort. The 3rd last week. I was given PPE. They have loads of rolls of aprons, gloves, masks. Same at the hospital. Now I know this is in an area not that badly effected, but the headlines suggest the NHS is about to topple over. From what I've seen in this area, it's functioning very well. 

I'm not saying that there isn't PPE shortages, there is. I just expected, from the headlines, it would be down to the last box of masks everywhere.

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, Norman said:

Well, funny you state facts at the bottom of the post. Because they aren't facts. I can give you many reasons why locking down earlier would have caused a lot more issues. Especially in my job where Italy got it all wrong. 

Also, unfortunately I was in the back of an ambulance the other night going to Peterborough hospital on an emergency escort. The 3rd last week. I was given PPE. They have loads of rolls of aprons, gloves, masks. Same at the hospital. Now I know this is in an area not that badly effected, but the headlines suggest the NHS is about to topple over. From what I've seen in this area, it's functioning very well. 

I'm not saying that there isn't PPE shortages, there is. I just expected, from the headlines, it would be down to the last box of masks everywhere.

"Not being better prepared with PPE is a mistake".

"I'm not saying that there isn't PPE shortages".

So we could have been better prepared?

You think going ahead with Cheltenham wasn't a mistake? You think giving everyone enough warning to go out for one last piss-up wasn't a mistake?

Are these things not facts?

[Uptherams]

12 minutes ago, Norman said:

Well, funny you state facts at the bottom of the post. Because they aren't facts. I can give you many reasons why locking down earlier would have caused a lot more issues. Especially in my job where Italy got it all wrong. 

Also, unfortunately I was in the back of an ambulance the other night going to Peterborough hospital on an emergency escort. The 3rd last week. I was given PPE. They have loads of rolls of aprons, gloves, masks. Same at the hospital. Now I know this is in an area not that badly effected, but the headlines suggest the NHS is about to topple over. From what I've seen in this area, it's functioning very well. 

I'm not saying that there isn't PPE shortages, there is. I just expected, from the headlines, it would be down to the last box of masks everywhere.

It's a systemic issue. Easier to try and blame the government than place the blame on those involved and responsible for auditing, ordering and delivering PPE throughout the NHS and other services and sectors. The UK could have tenfold the PPE it needed and there would still be areas which run out through miss management.