The FOBT debate, to ban or not to ban.

[Day]

5 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

But banning them will not change one thing, they'll still be addicts

I see you battling with a lot of people on Twitter about this, I know you're big on accepting responsibility for your actions which is true, they should.

It maybe also be true that gambling addicts right now will move on to new ways to bet to feed their addiction, but what about the 10 year olds now that are unaware of gambling?

Would it be great not to see those debt machines around when they are old enough to gamble along with other measures to prevent another generation of people putting themselves into severe financial situations?

I can see why you get peoples backs up and get blocked as it can come across as a be a man like me whilst they are campaigning for change which may help potential gamblers of tomorrow not just today.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, David said:

I see you battling with a lot of people on Twitter about this, I know you're big on accepting responsibility for your actions which is true, they should.

It maybe also be true that gambling addicts right now will move on to new ways to bet to feed their addiction, but what about the 10 year olds now that are unaware of gambling?

Would it be great not to see those debt machines around when they are old enough to gamble along with other measures to prevent another generation of people putting themselves into severe financial situations?

I can see why you get peoples backs up and get blocked as it can come across as a be a man like me whilst they are campaigning for change which may help potential gamblers of tomorrow not just today.

Did auto correct really change fobt to debt?!

[uttoxram75]

I don't gamble nowadays, i once witnessed a work colleague crying his eyes out because he had lost his wages in a card game at work and couldn't face going home to tell his wife. Yeah it was his own fault and he deserved it but a couple of us went and had a word with the chaps who'd "won" his money and they agreed to give him half of it back.

Mafia knows his onions on this subject so i respect his opinion but i can't help but think that anything that makes it easier for vulnerable people to gamble should be controlled or shut down.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

9 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

As many are aware I'm a Gambling Addict.

Haven't read this thread, but I know enough of your views on this to know I disagree with you on the FOBT issue. However, that's not the point I'm making here.

What I was wondering is why you still call yourself a gambling addict? I know it's not ideal that you have to restrain from place any bets out fear of returning to the habit, but don't you think you could give yourself a pat on the back and stop labelling yourself with that term? Would be interested to know why you still class yourself as an addict. Congratulations on so many years without a bet by the way.

[ronnieronalde]

9 hours ago, sage said:

You can bet much higher amounts on these machines. You could lose your money much quicker, giving you less time to think and stop.  

If they're the same style machines as they used to be, where the longer the jackpot isn't won for, the bigger it gets. Then they're incredibly dangerous things.

A long time ago now I watched someone stand there regularly and put every penny they had into a machine, making us all walk home. They did it because once they'd put in a bit, they couldn't leave it for the next person to come along, put in a quid and win all of their hard earned.

It becomes a horrible vicious circle, where they will literally guard a machine until someone comes with a few quid more, until they've lost it all and walk away close to tears. Heart breaking to witness the sheer madness of it.

I'd much prefer to see hundreds of legitimate mini poker clubs spring up. At least there those who want to gamble have the chance to apply a certain amount of logic and skill to their method.

Those machines are the devils work. Burn them all.

[ronnieronalde]

4 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

It is hard..... but it's about being responsible, you can put all the bans, barriers in place..... an addict will find a way if they want to bet. If we banned all gambling they'll still be addicts. No one thinks what happens after prevention. 

Judging by the whatever you don't want to answer the 2 questions posed. Maybe because we know how "hard" it is. 

Fair enough. 

As an addict (I don't know if it's wrong to say ex-addict). I hope you're coping well mafia.

What kind of things are discussed during re-hab or counselling pal? I'm sure it probably already happens but are you given the opportunity to negotiate an allowance to allow you to still satisfy the urge to gamble? Would something like that work potentially?  Is it discussed or are you expected to go cold turkey straight away?

I think I understand what you mean when you say banning the machines wouldn't solve the issue cos addicts would still need to gamble. 

Could something really radical like a tag work, for those who are in serious trouble with their addiction. Maybe a pre paid token, with a certain number of nominal value bets/plays available activated by the tag and once it's empty you can't gamble anymore.

I don't know if it's solvable pal, lots of people want lots of people to gamble, people want people to lose money  as without that they wouldn't make a penny. It's not a not for profit organisation that builds/licenses/markets these machines unfortunately.

[GboroRam]

9 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

I'll ask the two questions, who makes someone place a bet? And who places it? 

No-one and themselves. Of course.

Now what positive thingscdo FOBTs bring?

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

No-one and themselves. Of course.

Now what positive thingscdo FOBTs bring?

Income for the exchequer via machine gaming duty and corporation tax (unless the bookmakers are registered in another country of course).

They occupy buildings on the high street that would otherwise be empty. They probably even attract people to the high street so may have that knock on benefit. 

Employment.

[Sith Happens]

I have never used a FOBT, nor do I gamble much.

I don't really know how they work, as a non gambler I guess I sort of sit in the ' no one makes the person gamble' camp, but I know really its not always as simple as that.

Pressure to do something which can become addictive comes in many shapes and forms, accessibility is one but peer pressure I would suspect forms a large part of it too. 

Regarding these machines, is there evidence to suggest that the number of people gambling and money spent has increased since their introduction? If they weren't there would the person find somewhere else to bet ?

If you make it harder to do something does it hugely reduce the number of people who do it? Take smoking for example, in the past 10 years they have banned them in pubs etc, the cost has increased massively, you can't even see them in shops now without asking but despite a drop in smoking its not what I would consider that much of a success, the number of smokers 10 years ago was about 10.5 million, its still over 9 million, and the stat the amazed me was 17-24 year olds, OK its gone from 24% to 19% but this 19% are all new smokers during a time its been made more and more difficult to smoke.

So for me if the evidence shows that since their introduction the numbers had a sharp increase then yes do something, if its just another outlet to bet which will be replaced with something else then the focus is wrong, no idea what the answer is, education to some degree but how many people pay attention to the gamble responsibly messages, just the same as smokers and drinkers ignore the messages they have access too.

Do these machined only accept coins or are cards/notes accepted to? If they only accepted coins would that limit how much someone can bet?

[GboroRam]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Income for the exchequer via machine gaming duty and corporation tax (unless the bookmakers are registered in another country of course).

They occupy buildings on the high street that would otherwise be empty. They probably even attract people to the high street so may have that knock on benefit. 

Employment.

All of which comes from the pockets of gamblers. 

Honestly they don't provide anything positive imo. Even the people who win, just take money out of the pockets of those who lose.

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

All of which comes from the pockets of gamblers. 

Honestly they don't provide anything positive imo. Even the people who win, just take money out of the pockets of those who lose.

That's the same as any business.

The gambler is the consumer.

You could argue that a pub is a decent comparison.

[GboroRam]

17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

That's the same as any business.

The gambler is the consumer.

You could argue that a pub is a decent comparison.

It's hardly the same. When I go into B&Q and buy a hammer we both benefit. I can nail that wood and B&Q get some money. 

All gambling does is surcharge people for moving money around.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

It's hardly the same. When I go into B&Q and buy a hammer we both benefit. I can nail that wood and B&Q get some money. 

All gambling does is surcharge people for moving money around.

Use the pub as the example then. Both leisure/entertainment activities.

[GboroRam]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Use the pub as the example then. Both leisure/entertainment activities.

I get drunk, the pub gets money.

I listen to my favourite tunes, the juke box company gets money.

I play snooker, the table company gets money.

 

[G STAR RAM]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I get drunk, the pub gets money.

I listen to my favourite tunes, the juke box company gets money.

I play snooker, the table company gets money.

 

And isn't alcohol an addiction to many, the same as gambling?

[Day]

22 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

And isn't alcohol an addiction to many, the same as gambling?

It's illegal to serve alcohol to someone that is drunk, not illegal to allow someone to gamble when skint. 

Shouldnt gambling face more restrictions like alcohol? 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, David said:

It's illegal to serve alcohol to someone that is drunk, not illegal to allow someone to gamble when skint. 

Shouldnt gambling face more restrictions like alcohol? 

In more recent times the machines have had features added to them to say when certain levels of gambling have been reached.

Not sure if rolled out yet. 

There is also the option of self exclusion.

[Day]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

In more recent times the machines have had features added to them to say when certain levels of gambling have been reached.

Not sure if rolled out yet. 

There is also the option of self exclusion.

Nobody is saying self exclusion isn't an option, admitting you have an addiction be in alcohol, gambling, drugs, biting your toe nails is the first step to recovery. 

It's a step that not everyone finds easy to take, people like Andy need huge credit for what they achieved but what about others who have taken their own lives as a way out?

Is it such a bad thing to place restrictions on an industry that can destroy lives, same way alcohol and tobacco does?

Not seeing anyone call for the end of gambling, just restrictions like not displaying tobacco, not serving someone that is intoxicated more alcohol.

Always be ways around it and it may not have any effect on this current generation but that's not to say we can't put steps in place for future generations.

[G STAR RAM]

13 minutes ago, David said:

Nobody is saying self exclusion isn't an option, admitting you have an addiction be in alcohol, gambling, drugs, biting your toe nails is the first step to recovery. 

It's a step that not everyone finds easy to take, people like Andy need huge credit for what they achieved but what about others who have taken their own lives as a way out?

Is it such a bad thing to place restrictions on an industry that can destroy lives, same way alcohol and tobacco does?

Not seeing anyone call for the end of gambling, just restrictions like not displaying tobacco, not serving someone that is intoxicated more alcohol.

Always be ways around it and it may not have any effect on this current generation but that's not to say we can't put steps in place for future generations.

You're preaching to the converted, I am completely against these things being on the high street hiding behind the facade of being bookmakers.

Just trying to show that I do consider the counter arguments too though.

[Day]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

You're preaching to the converted, I am completely against these things being on the high street hiding behind the facade of being bookmakers.

Just trying to show that I do consider the counter arguments too though.

No real counter arguments though is there? 

Provide the help for those that are ready to admit they have a problem, help them get over their addictions. 

Tougher restrictions for the gambling industry.

Everyone is a winner excuse the pun.