New Overhaul Needed - Rome Wasn't Built In A Day

[cannable]

Deleted 

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, cannable said:

Far too many people have been raising concerns for too long for this just to be one guy scare-mongering. 

We were supposed to be following the model which has served Southampton and Swansea so well. Everything Mel said about improving performance gaffers coming in to continue his predecessor's work was something people bought into. This isn't it.

How many "failure" seasons did Swansea have? 3? 

Yet they have refused to change. And Watford (who's style has been pretty similar through 3 or 4 coaches?) 

I'm sure they've "failed" both. 

Yet Swansea have had a fantastic time. Won a cup, played in Europe and established in the PL. Good entertainers. Hit a few speed bumps but they have had fun. And all done by recruiting to fit since what,  Martinez?

[Tombo]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

How many "failure" seasons did Swansea have? 3? 

Yet they have refused to change. And Watford (who's style has been pretty similar through 3 or 4 coaches?) 

I'm sure they've "failed" both. 

Yet Swansea have had a fantastic time. Won a cup, played in Europe and established in the PL. Good entertainers. Hit a few speed bumps but they have had fun. And all done by recruiting to fit since what,  Martinez?

If you're the CEO of a company, you don't hire a manager and go "so, day one, what should we do? We don't know this sort of stuff so we'll just hand everything over to you and stay out of it"

He'd look at you blankly...What do you want him to do? You hired him, you're the boss. Give him targets and he will attempt to deliver. If delivering those targets aren't his strength, why did you hire him in the first place?

[CumbrianRam]

14 minutes ago, Alpha said:

How many "failure" seasons did Swansea have? 3? 

Yet they have refused to change. And Watford (who's style has been pretty similar through 3 or 4 coaches?) 

I'm sure they've "failed" both. 

Yet Swansea have had a fantastic time. Won a cup, played in Europe and established in the PL. Good entertainers. Hit a few speed bumps but they have had fun. And all done by recruiting to fit since what,  Martinez?

But but Lei....

[Tombo]

8 minutes ago, CumbrianRam said:

But but Lei....

The longer all of this has gone on, the more I've started to really appreciate Kasabian... Oh **** it's happening....

[Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster]

Apologies for double posting, as I put this in the Anya thread in the transfer section, though it's possibly more relevant here....

 

We have had undeniable talent for the last few years, but talent in itself is not enough without consistent application - Hence our regular frustration when the same team that ran rings around the opposition one week fail to even turn up the following game. It's happened too many times, THAT'S why we've failed to get promoted.

I trust Nigel to identify the consistent performers that will get us to the promised land. Some of our better players can be uplifted under his guidance to perform more consistently - others, despite their talent just don't have that in them and will be replaced over time.

The last few promotees from the Championship have done so more through consistency than silky skills.  More skilfull players can be woven into a future promoted side.

I'm not advocating a team of hard-working cloggers, just a degree of balance between skill and and an ability to do it 4 games in 5.

I'm liking what I've seen of Anya thus far, and I think with more of his type in our side, the likes of Hughes' skills can augment this type of character and performer that NP seems to identify and work well with.

We need reliable and skillful players, we've been thus far seduced by occasional skill only.

The tanker is being turned around. Reserve judgement for a few games yet....

[EssendonRam]

17 hours ago, Alpha said:

I honestly can't agree we're well short. We've been in the top 6 for almost all of the last 3 seasons. 

Short? Yes.  

Worth scrapping and starting again? No. 

Is that what you do when almost achieve something? Scrap it and start over? I start over when "nah, that's never gonna happen no matter what" 

As for Pearson. I think he's a good manager. But so was Jewell. He really was. Holloway was amazing with Blackpool. Warnock is another outstanding manager. 

I might be wrong here but I can't shake off the thought that one of the inspiring things about Pearson is that the team he built won the PL. The player he signed from Fleetwood was PL poty. But the truth is Ranieri won the PL.

Nigel Clough built our best squad in years. But we never won more than we lost. Not even the season he was sacked. The truth is McClaren got to the play offs. Ranieri got the best out of Vardy. Ranieri is entirely responsible for the way Leicester played last season. 

I just wonder if Pearson would be as well thought of if Ranieri had gotten relegated.

What he did at Leicester was good and I can see why THEY love him. But is he really worthy of the freedom of Derby? Would Warnock be rated so highly and be praised for pulling apart the squad? Mick Mccarthy?  

Not asking anyone to abandon faith. But just see why Pearson isn't such a safe bet with all of us

 

Just about a perfect post. There's not one aspect I disagree with although I had expected some tinkering over the off-season just because the gaps in our squad were so obvious, as is our mental brittleness at times when we can't / aren't score(ing) at will. (Granted, our most dramatic collapse last season doesn't really fit into that pattern but you know where I'm coming from.)  If anyone seriously thinks we must fully - or even substantially turn over the squad to start again (I hope it wasn't what you thought I was saying) - 

Besides, as Hendrink showed, our squad still has cachet even though some individuals have lost some value; it's a strong position to be in and one basically every club in the Championship (except Newcastle) would envy. But there's no denying we need some more grit and leadership on the pitch when momentum turns against us; we're too easily brushed aside physically at times.

Both Pearson and Clement tried to solidify us at the back first but you have to ask how any transition could render the team completely impotent. Nor do I belive either Pearson or Clement quite anticipated that; both were clearly frustrated by the degree of our loss of forward momentum (OK, Pearson a little more than Clement).

I do wonder why Pearson felt obligated to virtually make no changes at all over the offseason? Surely not just to give everyone a clean slate? Perhaps we needed / wanted to sell Hendrick first? I know the Euros would've stopped a lot being concluded but we were noticeably inactive. Perhaps you're right; perhaps it's nothing more than it all seemed to be progressing well until it was put under match day pressure.

I must admit that the it looked worse than that to me against Burton. We looked disinterested and slow. I found myself wondering as the game went on if trouble was back; whether between the players, or between the players and the manager. Perhaps possible transfer activity caused unrest.

Then Pearson's interview after the match confirmed that I hadn't misjudged how dismal the performance was (through sleep deprivation or overreacting to only the second match I've seen this season.)

As for worrying about Pearson, I wouldn't be.

I have often thought similarly about our capacity to take otherwise good, competent managers and spit them out with their reputations diminished, if not trashed.

I hate to say it but, at some point, we're going to work out the problem just might be the club and our expectations (or, as I've suggested previously, are we somehow searching for the next messiah?....as we once had a messiah and he was a very naughty boy named Clough... Sorry) and whether we, as a club, make it impossible for each manager because we lose confidence and panic when things have a setback. The only time we've not done that in 30 years was when the club gave Nigel Clough five years. He achieved what he said he would in each season too; and was sacked as soon as it looked like he might not reach the pre-season goal he set the club. And, for reasons I'll never understand, it seemed to become mandatory to try to dismiss what he'd done for our club if you are a Derby person. Rest assured, I am well aware that we're not Robinson Crusoe on that score; it's something English football clubs do not seem to have grown out of. (There's a club not far from us who had their ground capacity reduced because they've changed managers so often, they had to put their carcasses somewhere....so they took up seats.)

To be honest, I think you've answered your own half-question re Pearson in drawing the contrast with Nigel Clough.

Most Derby fans dismiss his achievements in building this side despite an incredible degree of difficulty. He was stubborn and tactically limited but he did have strong leadership qualities and could build a team; it's reasonable to question if he has the raw talent to develop into a Premiership manager. I doubt it personally but I would love to be wrong.

But Nigel Pearson....

Pearson built that Leicester side from League 1, through to survival in the Premiership (after being seemingly 'gone') despite some very tumultuous times (often due to Pearson himself). He may've been lucky with Vardy but there is more to Leicester's achievement than just Vardy.

It's worth reminding ourselves that Leicester under Pearson walked the Championship after they could have been shattered by a last-gasp playoff defeat the season before (we seem to be battling with our demons from ours, three years and four managers later).

He managed to lift them to a strong finish to stay up after they looked out of their depth before Christmas...in his first season managing in the Premiership. That, in itself, was an achievement; Ranieri assumed his post only a matter of weeks before the season started and he's hardly regarded as an interventionist manager. Ranieri put the icing on Pearson's cake and probably altered everyone's definition of what was possible, including Pearson's I suspect.

The thing which elated me most when we secured Pearson was how, despite seemingly being as mad as hell as far as I could tell from a distance, he seems to combine being absolute disciplinarian/benevolent dictator but remain a players' manager. That is not an easy combination to maintain; when I heard the awe, affection and the sheer regard in which his former players hold him. It wasn't that they loved the man; it was the manner they spoke of Pearson's ability to teach and improve players, communicate with them, to inspire them and get them to gel and commit as the unit. 

He struck me as the perfect appointment to take this side to the next level. If I am any judge of psychology, there's the potential further upside that he'd had twelve months out of the maelstrom to think about where he went wrong at Leicester and the hole it must burn in his guts.

Does that mean I think he can take Derby to challenge for the Premiership? Of course not.

I do, however, think he understands what it takes to get out of this league, and then to compete in the premiership. Unlike most managers coming to Derby, I suspect he's more likely to see his interests are aligned to achieving and sustaining that for Derby; in a way, to stake a claim for a share of the credit for Leicester's achievement by lifting us to respectability in the premiership.

It's easy to forget that we have either been out of the premiership, or completely uncompetitive in it, for 15 years now. 

All this is leading up to the point where I disagree with you. I recognise that you're advising all of us not to lose faith in Pearson. It's understandable after 1 goal in 5 games. (As an aside, how many 'shots on' have we had? That number could be even more dire than our goals scored.)

But you need to shake yourself up if you're seriously worried so soon. Pearson's ethos has always been very team-oriented and, as much as I love the side which has managed to get so far, the individualism and the brilliance interspersed with the indefensible, I want more.

And, if we have to take a few steps back to go forth, Pearson strikes me as worth the risk. If it's proves he's not, we're stuck for at least 2 or 3 seasons unless he goes unhinged once again.

Because Mel, and Derby, literally cannot retain credibility if we do not permit yet another manager a reasonable crack at it.

By the way, I agree with you that Jewell, Burley, et al were good managers. If you think about what Paul Jewell inherited at Derby - the Poison Dwarf's absolute mess - he really was a beaten man before he arrived. I honestly doubt anyone could turn that downward spiral around; in hindsight, I think we were fortunate not to end up in League 1, the place was so shot with confidence.

 

16 hours ago, toddy said:

We have been nearly men for 3 seasons and with the large investment [MM] - nearly is not quiet good enough.

Players I do think are not as good as some think, I do think that Mac got them playing to their Maximum ability and that's possibly why we have been unable to replicate that first season.

We have been top of the league at Christmas for the last 3 seasons but are unable to keep it going till May.

The team doesn't need a rebuild and start again, it needs tweaking, the team does need new additions and some will be shown the door

As for NP, an experienced player and an experienced manager at this level, in recent years he has promotion on his CV, but just as important what's the biggest thing after promotion, survival and he has also done that.

 

Hear! Hear!

You couldn't watch last Friday without being shaken by the lack of too much redeeming in the collective performance. Whether it was a lack of confidence in what's being asked of them; whether there's still remnants of the 'player power' and the direct line upstairs that seems (to me) to have existed at times in the last few years; whether players are unsettled about movements in and out (the former have coincided with our wheels falling off two seasons in a row); or they were suffering from a flu epidemic or the after-effects of an increased training load, the effort was poor.

It really did look to me like there was discord within the team, whether with each other or with Pearson. As brutal as Pearson's comments about the players were after the game, I was pleased that he said what was necessary. I have loved that this team have seemed to want to stay together but there are shortcomings which need to be addressed if we aren't going to remain "potential". Some are physical; Will Hughes is never going to be able to withstand stronger, bullocking midfielders without an enforcer there to support him. 

It seems Pearson believes that more goal scoring options will go a fair way to addressing what's wrong; it certainly can't hurt.

[BathRam72]

19 hours ago, GenBr said:

Leicesters run of good form to win the league didnt exactly come out of nowhere though. With Pearson in charge they won 7 of the last 9 games of the season - Ranieri just started where Pearson left off.

That is exactly what I said

[Alph]

26 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

That is exactly what I said

 

16 hours ago, Alpha said:

Ranieri won the Premier League. 

Pearson's end of season wins 

QPR, Southampton, Newcastle, Burnley, Swansea, West Brom, West Ham. Only 2 of these finished in the top half

Under Pearson they finished on 41pts. Ranieri on 82. That's a big assumption based on 7 wins in 9 matches. 4 of which finished with less than 45pts themselves. 2 were relegated. 

Vardy scored 25 goals in 3 seasons for Pearson. He scored 24 in 1 season for Ranieri.

Ranieri did more than carry on

 

 

[Tombo]

Pearson is to Ranieri what Nigel Clough was to McClaren. With the exception that Mac never got us over the line. Built the squad but didn't know how to use them.