New Overhaul Needed - Rome Wasn't Built In A Day

[GenBr]

1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

 

 

My point was that Pearson had assembled the team at Leicester but then wasn't allowed to see it through. Clough built his team and the same happened to him. I think the difference is that Clough hadn't had the experience at this level so every one thought we needed to bring in experience.

We will never know 

Leicesters run of good form to win the league didnt exactly come out of nowhere though. With Pearson in charge they won 7 of the last 9 games of the season - Ranieri just started where Pearson left off.

[JaguarRam]

If I had a fiver for every time I heard the words "We need a rebuild, "Start again" etc..

How many top 6 sides say this apart from us?

A lot of people seem to assume that because NP got Leicester up and they avoided relegation then it is a guarantee that he will do the same for us. Nothing is guaranteed.

I have been quite critical so far of him, but that is not because I am anti-Pearson, it is because he has made some shocking tactical and team decisions. Some people on this forum seem to think that he has done (and will do) no wrong. 

[archied]

All the rebuild versus tweak debate is missing the point in my opinion ,, the vast majority of it will come down to the players , Pearson has rightly changed the ethos of the club in terms of he expects players to train very hard and be at top fitness , he expects players to work extremely hard in games to keep their place in the side and he expects players to be disciplined enough to do the job they are asked to do within the team ,, how many of our players decide that that's what their paid to do and give everything in persuit of first team football will decide the scale of rebuild or tweaks with additions ,, also it's driving me nuts that people seem to believe it's either extremely hard working players and team or creative ,flair footballing team ,,,,,,, you need both ,all that's happening is Pearson setting the hard work as the vital first ingredient for every player and the team and the rest follows from there ,,, gone are the days of lazy luxury players on football ,,, look at Barcelona , fantastically gifted players but by god look at their work rate ,, Pearson is putting the first building block in place which will decide the size of the task ahead , whether you think Pearson is the right man or not ,good manager or bad you surely must agree with his opening stance regards players having to bust a gut to get in the team

[ITSD]

3 hours ago, toddy said:

Their record proves the opposite, they are not good enough - we are still in the championship. 

Maybe I should clarify. Our best players are more than good enough- I recently made a post elsewhere that showed when played in the 4-3-3 they acquired on average around 2 points per game (I can't remember the exact figure)- which is generally enough for automatic promotion.

The issue has been the management when these key players have been injured or, as is happening now, not using them in the system in which they play best.

[Alph]

6 hours ago, BathRam72 said:

but at least Pearson had the foresight to see the ability in the players that went on to win the premier league. We will never know if Pearson could actually pull it off so your argument Alpha is redundant.

Time will tell if Pearson is the man for the job.

Oh and Jewel was not a good manager.

What did Paul Jewell do with Bradford and Wigan? 

And by your argument we will never know if he'd have got Derby in the Champions League by now

[toddy]

15 minutes ago, ITSD said:

Maybe I should clarify. Our best players are more than good enough- I recently made a post elsewhere that showed when played in the 4-3-3 they acquired on average around 2 points per game (I can't remember the exact figure)- which is generally enough for automatic promotion.

The issue has been the management when these key players have been injured or, as is happening now, not using them in the system in which they play best.

It didn't happen though and that why is we were not good enough with the current team

Or you are saying we have players that can only play in a 4-3-3?

Systems systems and bloody systems................

[cannable]

27 minutes ago, toddy said:

It didn't happen though and that why is we were not good enough with the current team

Or you are saying we have players that can only play in a 4-3-3?

Systems systems and bloody systems................

Do you not think other factors contributed to us not being promoted? 

[Alph]

If Ranieri had gotten Leicester relegated the people would not be so in love with Pearson. 

Mick McCarthy would not get this level of support to tear things up. Neil Warnock wouldn't either. 

Paul Jewell has been promoted twice with Wigan and Bradford. He survived 7 years with Wigan. 

 

3 hours ago, GenBr said:

Leicesters run of good form to win the league didnt exactly come out of nowhere though. With Pearson in charge they won 7 of the last 9 games of the season - Ranieri just started where Pearson left off.

Ranieri won the Premier League. 

Pearson's end of season wins 

QPR, Southampton, Newcastle, Burnley, Swansea, West Brom, West Ham. Only 2 of these finished in the top half

Under Pearson they finished on 41pts. Ranieri on 82. That's a big assumption based on 7 wins in 9 matches. 4 of which finished with less than 45pts themselves. 2 were relegated. 

Vardy scored 25 goals in 3 seasons for Pearson. He scored 24 in 1 season for Ranieri.

Ranieri did more than carry on

 

[toddy]

1 minute ago, cannable said:

Do you not think other factors contributed to us not being promoted? 

Ist season under Mac - not good enough [ although possibly the best these bunch of players have played together.]

2nd season injuries played a part , but again we weren't good enough [played some pretty football though]

last season, that was the 3rd time we were top 3 Christmas running - played some poor football but got results and we really never looked the finished part even at Christmas when we were top.

Three season 4 managers, same players [almost] - just not good enough, I still maintain they have as a group already peaked in 2014, lovely football at times but couldn't maintain it.

[PodgeyRam]

6 minutes ago, Alpha said:

If Ranieri had gotten Leicester relegated the people would not be so in love with Pearson. 

Mick McCarthy would not get this level of support to tear things up. Neil Warnock wouldn't either. 

Paul Jewell has been promoted twice with Wigan and Bradford. He survived 7 years with Wigan. 

 

Ranieri won the Premier League. 

Pearson's end of season wins 

QPR, Southampton, Newcastle, Burnley, Swansea, West Brom, West Ham. Only 2 of these finished in the top half

Under Pearson they finished on 41pts. Ranieri on 82. That's a big assumption based on 7 wins in 9 matches. 4 of which finished with less than 40pts themselves. 2 were relegated. 

Vardy scored 25 goals in 3 seasons for Pearson. He scored 24 in 1 season for Ranieri.

Ranieri did more than carry on

 

Ranieri, very much like McClaren here went in and took a good group of players to another level by looking at their strengths and playing to them. Good managers tend to do that - play to the strengths of the players they have rather than blindly play what they as a manager are used to until they get the players they want in. Not seen much of that from Pearson so far.

For all the grief we gave Wassall last year at  least he knew what our players were good and bad at even if his team selectons and in-match tactics left something to be desired.

[cannable]

Just now, toddy said:

Ist season under Mac - not good enough [ although possibly the best these bunch of players have played together.]

2nd season injuries played a part , but again we weren't good enough [played some pretty football though]

last season, that was the 3rd time we were top 3 Christmas running - played some poor football but got results and we really never looked the finished part even at Christmas when we were top.

Three season 4 managers, same players [almost] - just not good enough, I still maintain they have as a group already peaked in 2014, lovely football at times but couldn't maintain it.

We averaged more points per game under McClaren than Burnley did. 

With regards to the second season, it looks like you're ignoring your own point to suit your agenda.

[Robbie Ram]

15 hours ago, Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster said:

Long time viewer, occaisional poster.

We've been been partly blessed, but much more frustrated by our playing staff stars. The truth is though, they ultimately haven't been good enough to take us to the promised land. They've shone like beacons on occasions, particularly Will Hughes, but we've been seduced by a combination of 1 in 3 pretty football performances, and more of late Mel's fat cheque-book, to lead us to collectively believe we're on the edge of Premiership entitlement or future greatness.

The truth is we're well, well short of being good enough. The last 3 years League tables and playoff failures disguise the truth of how far short we are. Yes, we've played pretty football at times, demolished the odd team that came to naively slug it out with us, but we've come to believe in the myth of the pretty " Derby Way" - A  4-3-3 style of Barcelona or Ajax-esque football where the opposition just sit back and admire our silky skills, whilst we dance prettily around them with our Premiership style football.

Just an off day from Martin, or Thorne's inevitable long term injuries scuppered this footballing nirvana and we never had a plan B. Formations are lovely but players win games, not formations and sadly most of our playing staff, no matter how much we eulogise about them are indeed "1 in 3 players". It's been a blast, but we aint getting promoted with it.

Given some of the ( reported ) offers for Hendrick, Martin and Russell, we should take that £20million ( ignoring the Vydra fee - i.e. a net £8million investment ) and reinvest it in 4 or 5 players who have a professional pride to sweat blood for our club and put in 8/10 performances EVERY week- particularly 2 strikers, 2 central midfielders and a central defender who will die for the cause, not rest on his championship reputation to play out his remaining career passing sidewards. Yes, I know this will be heresy to some, but Shackell is single-handedly KILLING our attacking play. By the time he's performed 5 side passes, taking up nearly a minute of play, our team progress forward to the confront the footballing equivalent of trench warfare. So slow are we to counter attack, by the time we get there, the trenches are dug, the defence is so organised that it is inpenetrable, and the opposition have got a big fat cigar on, smiling.

We need to face the facts. A lot of our playing staff have been too comfortable for too long. Not turning up at all in key games. Our only saving grace is that Nigel Pearson has identified this very early on. I think he's been truly shocked that a team of our undisputed ability actually has no backbone - hence the frantic transfer activity in the last few days. Problem is, where last summer we were Billy Big Balls with the fat cheque-book, in the advent of parachute payments we're being out-bid and out maneuvered by Newcastle and Villa chasing the same targets.

I've a lot of faith in Nigel Pearson, but if you listen to Leicester fans success didn't come to them instantly. It took him a couple of transfer windows to rid those that wouldn't die for the cause. I remember them saying he'll be initially unpopular, dropping fans' favourites, but that's what we need.

We've a squad of about 39, the turnaround may not be as quick as we all would hope for, despite our bigger than average budget for this division.

Eventually though, I'm confident that every match day we'll field a team of 11 grafters and others on the bench of a similar mindset.

We can all accept defeat, football matches can be decided on the thinnest of margins, we just want a team that sweats, tries and kicks every ball as we do.

We can have quality WITH effort. It'll just take a little longer than just waving money at it.

We need perspective - not entitlement.

The future's bright...

COYR!

Great post my man!!
 

You just ticked all the right boxes.

Effort only comes from players who possess the right degree of character.

In the prevailing cosy boys club aka our first team squad that vital personality trait is desperately thin on the ground.  

[trevor1946]

Alfa you keep bringing Paul Jewel up his record with Derby was not good,even so we did not sack Jewel he resighned ,

This was a time before, Sam Rush,and his fururistic methods,,of drop clangers  and     ,sack em all

Meanwhile get a extended contract for failure,--Clough --McClaren--Clements---Wasell,and 8 ,coaches a small price to pay.

for 3 years of decline.while wasting multi millions on failure,...This club is in a mess wrong to expect even a man of pearsons vast knowledge to put it wright in 5 games.will take a lot longer,the new additions will take a lot of shifting.

Ask Clough how hard it is to move on a player with a big salary.Bent for example.takes time 

[Leicester Fan]

17 minutes ago, Alpha said:

If Ranieri had gotten Leicester relegated the people would not be so in love with Pearson. 

Mick McCarthy would not get this level of support to tear things up. Neil Warnock wouldn't either. 

Paul Jewell has been promoted twice with Wigan and Bradford. He survived 7 years with Wigan. 

 

Ranieri won the Premier League. 

Pearson's end of season wins 

QPR, Southampton, Newcastle, Burnley, Swansea, West Brom, West Ham. Only 2 of these finished in the top half

Under Pearson they finished on 41pts. Ranieri on 82. That's a big assumption based on 7 wins in 9 matches. 4 of which finished with less than 45pts themselves. 2 were relegated. 

Vardy scored 25 goals in 3 seasons for Pearson. He scored 24 in 1 season for Ranieri.

Ranieri did more than carry on

 

Well I'd be just as in love with Pearson. He took over a bang average Championship side who had wasted millions on awful players, cut costs, built a fantastic squad and backroom staff, got us into the Premier League and kept us up.

Yes Ranieri did more than carry on, that's obvious. But it doesn't mean Pearson didn't do an incredible job here, he did. You're not a mid table Premier League side aspiring to win the Premier League, you're an upper mid-table Championship side aspiring to get into and stay in the Premier League. Nigel Pearson won this division, with 102 points, three seasons ago. Two seasons ago he kept a newly promoted team in the Premier League. He built a fantastic squad and backroom team here and moved us forward in all of his six seasons at the club. Ranieri was a vital factor in our success last season, but you can't detach Nigel Pearson from that success. He built the foundations. If getting 102 points and building a fantastic team in the division you've been struggling with doesn't give him the right to tweak your side then is anyone allowed to? I imagine an objective party would agree that he's a lot more qualified than Clough, Clement or Wassall were.

I get that some of you have got issues with decisions made in his first five games as Derby manager, and obviously it's completely outrageous that his first five games have been unimpressive. But for the love of God, hold off on crucifying him until he's had the time to make the changes behind the scenes and to your squad - because that is what he's good at and like it or not that surely has to be the reason he was hired. At the very least please stop using his record here as a stick to beat him with, it's both unbelievably infuriating and completely unjustified.

[cannable]

@Leicester Fan - I think Alpha's frustrations are more to do with the fact that some portions of our fan base are choosing to place the blame entirely on the players and thus are happy for Pearson to completely re-build the side. 

He's making the point that Pearson's being given this, shall we say freedom, from portions of the fan base despite his past record's either similar to or worse than other managers who simply wouldn't be given this liscence from the fan base. 

[toddy]

2 hours ago, cannable said:

We averaged more points per game under McClaren than Burnley did. 

With regards to the second season, it looks like you're ignoring your own point to suit your agenda.

Not really  - pretty football does not equal success, - results and final league position do.

[cannable]

4 minutes ago, toddy said:

Not really  - pretty football does not equal success, - results and final league position do.

[Alph]

3 hours ago, Leicester Fan said:

Well I'd be just as in love with Pearson. He took over a bang average Championship side who had wasted millions on awful players, cut costs, built a fantastic squad and backroom staff, got us into the Premier League and kept us up.

Yes Ranieri did more than carry on, that's obvious. But it doesn't mean Pearson didn't do an incredible job here, he did. You're not a mid table Premier League side aspiring to win the Premier League, you're an upper mid-table Championship side aspiring to get into and stay in the Premier League. Nigel Pearson won this division, with 102 points, three seasons ago. Two seasons ago he kept a newly promoted team in the Premier League. He built a fantastic squad and backroom team here and moved us forward in all of his six seasons at the club. Ranieri was a vital factor in our success last season, but you can't detach Nigel Pearson from that success. He built the foundations. If getting 102 points and building a fantastic team in the division you've been struggling with doesn't give him the right to tweak your side then is anyone allowed to? I imagine an objective party would agree that he's a lot more qualified than Clough, Clement or Wassall were.

I get that some of you have got issues with decisions made in his first five games as Derby manager, and obviously it's completely outrageous that his first five games have been unimpressive. But for the love of God, hold off on crucifying him until he's had the time to make the changes behind the scenes and to your squad - because that is what he's good at and like it or not that surely has to be the reason he was hired. At the very least please stop using his record here as a stick to beat him with, it's both unbelievably infuriating and completely unjustified.

You've missed my point.

You think I don't rate Pearson. I do. I'm just going against the idea that just because he was good for you that doesn't mean he'll be good for us.

"But at Leicester..." doesn't work for me.

"But at Bradford and Wigan" was no good for us when we took on Jewell.

And I'm dead against us rebuilding to suit him. If he was to show signs of understanding what we have then i'd be far more patient. 

I'm not against Pearson

I'm against people saying our players don't care when there are HUGE holes on our formation and we play hoofball. 

You've almost entirely missed my point. 

You say I don't want him to tweak the team? I've said I want him to since day one. What I don't want is the drastic changes to playing style and player positions that we're seeing now. 

There's other threads where we've talked about this deeper.

In this thread my point was purely that you can't expect everyone to have blind faith "because at Leicester.."

We love Mac because of the jump up I'm quality. Didn't help him at Newcastle. 

And I maintain that Ranieri winning the league has elevated Pearson. Because we treated Wassall poorly and his football was better than this. 

No way would we be promoting a total rebuild if other managers came here and dud what Pearson did. McCarthy and Warnock would not get such faith. 

Not once have I called Pearson a bad manager. I'm just very cautious about doing more than tweaking "because at Leicester.."

 

[May Contain Nuts]

8 of the players who made 18 or more appearances in the season Pearson retook control of Leicester each made more than 30 appearances in the season they won promotion.

I made this rubbish little squad comparison on the day before he took over, feels like a good time to bring it back out - see what he started with and what he left (The Championship) with.

 

15 November 2011 - 24 May 2015

 

[Alph]

See this is what I didn't want to happen.

Because you show concerns about the direction the club is willing to take and the idea of a "rebuild" people pop you in the "Pearson is crap" camp.

Barely anyone has question Nigel Pearson's skill. 

We've questioned whether he fits the team

Whether we should be allowing anyone to rebuild after years of trying to get to what we have now. 

And we've tried to defend accusations aimed at players for not trying and pointed to the confusing system of playing

To which the responses have been about Leicester or that we have failed for 3 seasons.

To which some of us have tried to say that whatever happened at Leicester guaranteed nothing anywhere else. Not for any manager. Plenty of "proven" managers have had disaster moves. We tried to explain why we "failed" in the seasons that were 3 of the better seasons since 2002. And in our opinion based on those reasons we don't need to rebuild 

So we're questioning Pearson's objective.

Not his ability or CV. 

Think more why a great manager like Jose would not be wanted by a great club like Barcelona even if they fell behind Real Madrid. They recruit to fit and build slowly but surely. Every recruit is brought in on there ability to fit a role. Jose would not tick the box for a coach there.

And on a much much lesser scale and in a far more competitive environment that's the path we set down. Clement didn't work but it you never know. He was a rookie after all. Wassall fitted but had abuse right from day 1 and was crucified for mistakes

Pearson hasn't looked to fit at all so far yet excuses are being made for him. 

I actually feel for Pearson because he's taken on a very hard and confusing job. 

If he's here to rebuild then I've got serious concerns about the long term growth of Derby under Mel Morris. I'm picturing one short term fix to the next like West Brom, Sunderland etc etc