Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Long time viewer, occaisional poster. We've been been partly blessed, but much more frustrated by our playing staff stars. The truth is though, they ultimately haven't been good enough to take us to the promised land. They've shone like beacons on occasions, particularly Will Hughes, but we've been seduced by a combination of 1 in 3 pretty football performances, and more of late Mel's fat cheque-book, to lead us to collectively believe we're on the edge of Premiership entitlement or future greatness. The truth is we're well, well short of being good enough. The last 3 years League tables and playoff failures disguise the truth of how far short we are. Yes, we've played pretty football at times, demolished the odd team that came to naively slug it out with us, but we've come to believe in the myth of the pretty " Derby Way" - A 4-3-3 style of Barcelona or Ajax-esque football where the opposition just sit back and admire our silky skills, whilst we dance prettily around them with our Premiership style football. Just an off day from Martin, or Thorne's inevitable long term injuries scuppered this footballing nirvana and we never had a plan B. Formations are lovely but players win games, not formations and sadly most of our playing staff, no matter how much we eulogise about them are indeed "1 in 3 players". It's been a blast, but we aint getting promoted with it. Given some of the ( reported ) offers for Hendrick, Martin and Russell, we should take that £20million ( ignoring the Vydra fee - i.e. a net £8million investment ) and reinvest it in 4 or 5 players who have a professional pride to sweat blood for our club and put in 8/10 performances EVERY week- particularly 2 strikers, 2 central midfielders and a central defender who will die for the cause, not rest on his championship reputation to play out his remaining career passing sidewards. Yes, I know this will be heresy to some, but Shackell is single-handedly KILLING our attacking play. By the time he's performed 5 side passes, taking up nearly a minute of play, our team progress forward to the confront the footballing equivalent of trench warfare. So slow are we to counter attack, by the time we get there, the trenches are dug, the defence is so organised that it is inpenetrable, and the opposition have got a big fat cigar on, smiling. We need to face the facts. A lot of our playing staff have been too comfortable for too long. Not turning up at all in key games. Our only saving grace is that Nigel Pearson has identified this very early on. I think he's been truly shocked that a team of our undisputed ability actually has no backbone - hence the frantic transfer activity in the last few days. Problem is, where last summer we were Billy Big Balls with the fat cheque-book, in the advent of parachute payments we're being out-bid and out maneuvered by Newcastle and Villa chasing the same targets. I've a lot of faith in Nigel Pearson, but if you listen to Leicester fans success didn't come to them instantly. It took him a couple of transfer windows to rid those that wouldn't die for the cause. I remember them saying he'll be initially unpopular, dropping fans' favourites, but that's what we need. We've a squad of about 39, the turnaround may not be as quick as we all would hope for, despite our bigger than average budget for this division. Eventually though, I'm confident that every match day we'll field a team of 11 grafters and others on the bench of a similar mindset. We can all accept defeat, football matches can be decided on the thinnest of margins, we just want a team that sweats, tries and kicks every ball as we do. We can have quality WITH effort. It'll just take a little longer than just waving money at it. We need perspective - not entitlement. The future's bright... COYR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssendonRam Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster said: Long time viewer, occaisional poster. We've been been partly blessed, but much more frustrated by our playing staff stars. The truth is though, they ultimately haven't been good enough to take us to the promised land. They've shone like beacons on occasions, particularly Will Hughes, but we've been seduced by a combination of 1 in 3 pretty football performances, and more of late Mel's fat cheque-book, to lead us to collectively believe we're on the edge of Premiership entitlement or future greatness. The truth is we're well, well short of being good enough. The last 3 years League tables and playoff failures disguise the truth of how far short we are. Yes, we've played pretty football at times, demolished the odd team that came to naively slug it out with us, but we've come to believe in the myth of the pretty " Derby Way" - A 4-3-3 style of Barcelona or Ajax-esque football where the opposition just sit back and admire our silky skills, whilst we dance prettily around them with our Premiership style football. Just an off day from Martin, or Thorne's inevitable long term injuries scuppered this footballing nirvana and we never had a plan B. Formations are lovely but players win games, not formations and sadly most of our playing staff, no matter how much we eulogise about them are indeed "1 in 3 players". It's been a blast, but we aint getting promoted with it. Given some of the ( reported ) offers for Hendrick, Martin and Russell, we should take that £20million ( ignoring the Vydra fee - i.e. a net £8million investment ) and reinvest it in 4 or 5 players who have a professional pride to sweat blood for our club and put in 8/10 performances EVERY week- particularly 2 strikers, 2 central midfielders and a central defender who will die for the cause, not rest on his championship reputation to play out his remaining career passing sidewards. Yes, I know this will be heresy to some, but Shackell is single-handedly KILLING our attacking play. By the time he's performed 5 side passes, taking up nearly a minute of play, our team progress forward to the confront the footballing equivalent of trench warfare. So slow are we to counter attack, by the time we get there, the trenches are dug, the defence is so organised that it is inpenetrable, and the opposition have got a big fat cigar on, smiling. We need to face the facts. A lot of our playing staff have been too comfortable for too long. Not turning up at all in key games. Our only saving grace is that Nigel Pearson has identified this very early on. I think he's been truly shocked that a team of our undisputed ability actually has no backbone - hence the frantic transfer activity in the last few days. Problem is, where last summer we were Billy Big Balls with the fat cheque-book, in the advent of parachute payments we're being out-bid and out maneuvered by Newcastle and Villa chasing the same targets. I've a lot of faith in Nigel Pearson, but if you listen to Leicester fans success didn't come to them instantly. It took him a couple of transfer windows to rid those that wouldn't die for the cause. I remember them saying he'll be initially unpopular, dropping fans' favourites, but that's what we need. We've a squad of about 39, the turnaround may not be as quick as we all would hope for, despite our bigger than average budget for this division. Eventually though, I'm confident that every match day we'll field a team of 11 grafters and others on the bench of a similar mindset. We can all accept defeat, football matches can be decided on the thinnest of margins, we just want a team that sweats, tries and kicks every ball as we do. We can have quality WITH effort. It'll just take a little longer than just waving money at it. We need perspective - not entitlement. The future's bright... COYR! I don't concur with all of the minutiae of your post but I absolutely concur with the broad thrust. We are blessed with a very talented squad but have a number of shortcomings; despite the amount spent on the squad, it's still unbalanced' in the sense that there are obvious areas where we lack depth; we're prone at times (this season not being one of them so far) to pretty, offensive football which can be wonderful to watch when we're able to dictate play but we are vulnerable to tough, 'professional' sides and physical/mental resilience is what tends to win the Championship. I still believe that there's a brittleness in our confidence at times dating from the playoff final which we've failed to confront and overcome. Some thought me overly pessimistic pre-season when I warned that, given how strong the top of the Championship is this season, Pearson might need to take a year to mould this side into his side although, in truth, it was more a theoretical point and I certainly didn't have in mind anything like what we've seen thus far. Indeed, as the pre-season progressed and Pearson made so few changes, I must admit I assumed he was satisfied with how the squad was responding. After Burton - and Pearson's post-match interview - it's obvious that the issues run deep. But I have no doubt that Pearson's the right man; you could argue he's left his moves a little late but you can hardly argue he's not moved decisively once he decided he had to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 The real problem is that to do the job properly Pearson had no choice but to leave it late , the only way for him to really get to know about our squad was to get them out on the pitch with jobs to do within the team in competitive games and see how they respond , it's ok for them to make all the right noises during pre season when perhaps secretly they feel that their places in the team are safe and nothing is going to change to much from the norm they have become comfortable with ,,, Pearson has come in and shook things up and it clear from that that he is looking for a response in players mentality ,sadly it's clear at this point that in the main he is not getting that he's getting the opposite ,players going through the motions ,,, hopefully it will change if he stands firm with this and outs a few the rest will see it's how it's going to be and fight for their places ,,if not it's going to take longer but there's no doubt in my mind that it's a job that has to be done if we are going to progress beyond being a pretty at times tippy tappy team that never quite goes anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irobinson Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 8 minutes ago, archied said: The real problem is that to do the job properly Pearson had no choice but to leave it late , the only way for him to really get to know about our squad was to get them out on the pitch with jobs to do within the team in competitive games and see how they respond , it's ok for them to make all the right noises during pre season when perhaps secretly they feel that their places in the team are safe and nothing is going to change to much from the norm they have become comfortable with ,,, Pearson has come in and shook things up and it clear from that that he is looking for a response in players mentality ,sadly it's clear at this point that in the main he is not getting that he's getting the opposite ,players going through the motions ,,, hopefully it will change if he stands firm with this and outs a few the rest will see it's how it's going to be and fight for their places ,,if not it's going to take longer but there's no doubt in my mind that it's a job that has to be done if we are going to progress beyond being a pretty at times tippy tappy team that never quite goes anywhere I agree with that - he needed time and space he needs to galvanise a new team - and hey Vydra (don't know much about the lad) and if it's Grabbon et al - so be it - trust him to try and get the right ingredients spending silly money again - is a no. it would be great if he can produce something - and give Newcastle and Villa the two fingers we need together to get behind the new personnel and team Good luck to Jeff Hendrick - looks like he is off today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I honestly can't agree we're well short. We've been in the top 6 for almost all of the last 3 seasons. Short? Yes. Worth scrapping and starting again? No. Is that what you do when almost achieve something? Scrap it and start over? I start over when "nah, that's never gonna happen no matter what" As for Pearson. I think he's a good manager. But so was Jewell. He really was. Holloway was amazing with Blackpool. Warnock is another outstanding manager. I might be wrong here but I can't shake off the thought that one of the inspiring things about Pearson is that the team he built won the PL. The player he signed from Fleetwood was PL poty. But the truth is Ranieri won the PL. Nigel Clough built our best squad in years. But we never won more than we lost. Not even the season he was sacked. The truth is McClaren got to the play offs. Ranieri got the best out of Vardy. Ranieri is entirely responsible for the way Leicester played last season. I just wonder if Pearson would be as well thought of if Ranieri had gotten relegated. What he did at Leicester was good and I can see why THEY love him. But is he really worthy of the freedom of Derby? Would Warnock be rated so highly and be praised for pulling apart the squad? Mick Mccarthy? Not asking anyone to abandon faith. But just see why Pearson isn't such a safe bet with all of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 We have been nearly men for 3 seasons and with the large investment [MM] - nearly is not quiet good enough. Players I do think are not as good as some think, I do think that Mac got them playing to their Maximum ability and that's possibly why we have been unable to replicate that first season. We have been top of the league at Christmas for the last 3 seasons but are unable to keep it going till May. The team doesn't need a rebuild and start again, it needs tweaking, the team does need new additions and some will be shown the door As for NP, an experienced player and an experienced manager at this level, in recent years he has promotion on his CV, but just as important what's the biggest thing after promotion, survival and he has also done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 but at least Pearson had the foresight to see the ability in the players that went on to win the premier league. We will never know if Pearson could actually pull it off so your argument Alpha is redundant. Time will tell if Pearson is the man for the job. Oh and Jewel was not a good manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITSD Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I read the bit about a team of grafters and my head went straight into my hands. There's a strange obsession in this country with players who run about loads but are rubbish. Grafters is one of those football terms up there with players who 'put themselves about' (thugs) and 'experienced' (past it) as euphemisms for players who are rubbish. The players are clearly good enough, their record over the past 3 seasons shows that. The problem lies with the management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Le Mesmer Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Thing about us this season so far though especially attack wise is that our players don't even run about loads. It's all very pedestrian and I don't see players busting their balls to make runs or win at all costs despite it being a bare minimum requirement from their employers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, BathRam72 said: but at least Pearson had the foresight to see the ability in the players that went on to win the premier league. We will never know if Pearson could actually pull it off so your argument Alpha is redundant. Time will tell if Pearson is the man for the job. Oh and Jewel was not a good manager. Do you think we would have finished third under Clough in 13/14? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Willow Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 An excellent analysis, I would have liked to written it in your place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Again we will never know as he wasn't here. If you are asking me if he had taken the club as far as he could, then the answer might be yes maybe he had. But there are a lot on here wishing he was still here. My point was that Pearson had assembled the team at Leicester but then wasn't allowed to see it through. Clough built his team and the same happened to him. I think the difference is that Clough hadn't had the experience at this level so every one thought we needed to bring in experience. We will never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, BathRam72 said: I think the difference is that Clough hadn't had the experience at this level so every one thought we needed to bring in experience. We will never know Clough had spent a larger portion of his career in The Championship than Pearson had at that time… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, cannable said: Clough had spent a larger portion of his career in The Championship than Pearson had at that time… Agreed, but my original post was based on the merits of Pearson LAST season and whether he could have done it then. Pearson is a whole different manager to Nigel. Maybe you should ask whether Nigel could do any better than Pearson here and now with the current Squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 36 minutes ago, ITSD said: I read the bit about a team of grafters and my head went straight into my hands. There's a strange obsession in this country with players who run about loads but are rubbish. Grafters is one of those football terms up there with players who 'put themselves about' (thugs) and 'experienced' (past it) as euphemisms for players who are rubbish. The players are clearly good enough, their record over the past 3 seasons shows that. The problem lies with the management. Their record proves the opposite, they are not good enough - we are still in the championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 minute ago, BathRam72 said: Agreed, but my original post was based on the merits of Pearson LAST season and whether he could have done it then. Pearson is a whole different manager to Nigel. Maybe you should ask whether Nigel could do any better than Pearson here and now with the current Squad? Are they really? Their strengths are recruitment, they can be a bit arsey in interviews, they are both known as 'builders' and they want their teams fit and honest. The differences are that Clough wants his teams to play possession football whereas Pearson wants his to be pacey and explosive and that Clough is fiercely loyal to a sub-standard coaching team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, toddy said: Their record proves the opposite, they are not good enough - we are still in the championship. So do you knock it down and start again or improve on what's already there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 minute ago, cannable said: Are they really? Their strengths are recruitment, they can be a bit arsey in interviews, they are both known as 'builders' and they want their teams fit and honest. The differences are that Clough wants his teams to play possession football whereas Pearson wants his to be pacey and explosive and that Clough is fiercely loyal to a sub-standard coaching team. All managers get arsey at times, all managers are builders or they shouldn't be managing in the first place. All managers SHOULD want their players fit and honest. In my opinion, Clough and Pearson are totally different. Like I said earlier, time will tell as to whether Pearson can get the team he wants playing the way he wants and whether it will be good enough to get us where WE want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 43 minutes ago, cannable said: So do you knock it down and start again or improve on what's already there? You move some out and bring in those that you think will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor1946 Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Pearson is old school,not a roving head coach who takes the money and banks it.then moves on to another club. Clough needed 20 million for a striker--central midfield playmaker-and central defender, 20 million out of the yanks.yer having a laugh-The squad Clough put together,has put us in the top 10 for the last 5 years,our top players are,from the Clough preriod ,Is Hendrick going 10 million,Hughes-Bennett-Hendricl-Obrien-Hanson-Naylor,all from the academy.. How many come through in the last 3 years .,McClaren failure at newcastle to add to his list.Clements back to assistant. coach =Wasell back to the academy,and you think we would not have progresed, ,Move on after 3 wasted years ,Pearson will do a Clough,move the club forward,and tell Rush where to stick is bright ideas,on footballing matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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