My End of Season Review...

[Mostyn6]

​Most, me and you are having a bit of to-ing and fro-ing her, but I quite like it. The first time we've really debated.

Where was this kind of post after we'd just smashed Watford all over the park but within 15 minites of the game finishing had to listen to the self appointed football guru @Bris Vegas come on and tell us how we were ****?

That's been the biggest struggle for me. you;re now defending the manager to the hilt for the same things you were prepared to throw the last manager under the bus for.

You've now found your reasonable side, the side that can look on 8th place and a collapse as being fair enough.

I find it all a tiny bit hypocritcal if I'm perfectly honest. You were one of the ringleaders of the Clough out campaign from very early on. Yet now it's the fans fault for taking way the good will surrounding the club.

What happened pal? Did you go to meet a budha who convinced you to find the calm, gentle, accepting Mostyn?

​I've got to be honest, I don't think I was posting in the same forums as you for the first full season and a half of Clough's reign, but whilst my gut feeling was that he wouldn't be a success, I was far from being a ringleader at that stage, and even at a later stage, most of my criticisms came with solutions. I will still never forgive Clough for not shaking up the coaching setup and perhaps reaching his full potential as the focal point of a coaching team, and I expect you to be fair and acknowledge I was forever harping on about Clough making those changes. I certainly wanted him to be a success. If, by this time next year, we've had a repeat of this season, I reckon I'll be far more critical of SMc. If I wasn't, then perhaps call me a hypocrit. At this stage though, I just think it's too early, and the squad is still largely Nigel's.

[Alph]

He couldn't really say owt as he didn't have the right qualifications! Bit embarrassing for the lad really.

So The Mirror made it up then.

Yet here we are... "There's no smoke without fire"

 

[ronnieronalde]

​I've got to be honest, I don't think I was posting in the same forums as you for the first full season and a half of Clough's reign, but whilst my gut feeling was that he wouldn't be a success, I was far from being a ringleader at that stage, and even at a later stage, most of my criticisms came with solutions. I will still never forgive Clough for not shaking up the coaching setup and perhaps reaching his full potential as the focal point of a coaching team, and I expect you to be fair and acknowledge I was forever harping on about Clough making those changes. I certainly wanted him to be a success. If, by this time next year, we've had a repeat of this season, I reckon I'll be far more critical of SMc. If I wasn't, then perhaps call me a hypocrit. At this stage though, I just think it's too early, and the squad is still largely Nigel's.

​I try to be fair, really I do.

I acknowledge you asked for him to change the coaching staff.

But I also remember when players were making individual mistakes how you (and others) would absolutely crucify tactics and anything/everything else from his man management, to his bullying etc. Now it's totally opposite.

This manager came in and YOU ALL TOLD me what a graet coach he was, how he transformed all of those players YOU TOLD me weren't good enough, into players who were going to win the league.

I guess my overall point is, I don't think you as Mostyn are as qualified or as experienced in football to make the comments. observations or to come up with the "solutions" to the criticisms you lay at the managers door. Now to see you go full circle and defend this manager when the same players make the same mistakes, just confirms to me what I believed for a while, that you and others had an anti clough agenda based on when he was a player and he used to smash Derby all over the park. I think that agenda was a real shame cos it stopped a man who loved he club from progressing it in a way which I personally believe he would have.

Now onto Mac who was held up as "one of us" someone who loved the club through and through and had real connections to Derby County, yet I strongly believe he's off. Connections or not.

All of the above is written in a much calmer way than anything I wrote when we were rowing by the way. I don't mind your views or anything like that, I just find it slightly amusing that there's been a full about turn.

I've started getting quite positive feelings for some posters I used to argue with. @Troy Dyer makes me laugh A LOT. @RamNut, I can't remember the last time I ever disagreed with him, you. I think you talk a lot of sense and quite enjoy most of your posts.

Just a shame that for a few years YOU took away any chance of the positivity you're now demanding from others.

Football eh? You've got to love the way it can turn grown men into bumbling idiots ;-)  and I definitely include myself in that.

 

[Mostyn6]

​I try to be fair, really I do.

I acknowledge you asked for him to change the coaching staff.

But I also remember when players were making individual mistakes how you (and others) would absolutely crucify tactics and anything/everything else from his man management, to his bullying etc. Now it's totally opposite.

This manager came in and YOU ALL TOLD me what a graet coach he was, how he transformed all of those players YOU TOLD me weren't good enough, into players who were going to win the league.

I guess my overall point is, I don't think you as Mostyn are as qualified or as experienced in football to make the comments. observations or to come up with the "solutions" to the criticisms you lay at the managers door. Now to see you go full circle and defend this manager when the same players make the same mistakes, just confirms to me what I believed for a while, that you and others had an anti clough agenda based on when he was a player and he used to smash Derby all over the park. I think that agenda was a real shame cos it stopped a man who loved he club from progressing it in a way which I personally believe he would have.

Now onto Mac who was held up as "one of us" someone who loved the club through and through and had real connections to Derby County, yet I strongly believe he's off. Connections or not.

All of the above is written in a much calmer way than anything I wrote when we were rowing by the way. I don't mind your views or anything like that, I just find it slightly amusing that there's been a full about turn.

I've started getting quite positive feelings for some posters I used to argue with. @Troy Dyer makes me laugh A LOT. @RamNut, I can't remember the last time I ever disagreed with him, you. I think you talk a lot of sense and quite enjoy most of your posts.

Just a shame that for a few years YOU took away any chance of the positivity you're now demanding from others.

Football eh? You've got to love the way it can turn grown men into bumbling idiots ;-)  and I definitely include myself in that.

 

​the be all and end all with me is that once I am convinced of something, I am consistent. I will always give reasons. I never got to the point with Billy Davies, but I did with Jewell, who was a broken man when he arrived, but tried to hard to do too much in too short a time. I had doubts about Nigel after about a year, but it took a couple of years for me to demand change. It would be the same with McClaren. I don't think the reasons are fair just yet.

[Bris Vegas]

Where was this kind of post after we'd just smashed Watford all over the park but within 15 minites of the game finishing had to listen to the self appointed football guru @Bris Vegas come on and tell us how we were ****?

 

​Never said I was a football guru, but I could see past the Clough dream and see he couldn't take us any further than midtable. You, on the other hand, could never let go of said dream and spoke from the heart rather than the head.

Fair play. 

[ronnieronalde]

​Never said I was a football guru, but I could see past the Clough dream and see he couldn't take us any further than midtable. You, on the other hand, could never let go of said dream and spoke from the heart rather than the head.

Fair play. 

​Not entirely true my Mexico dwelling friend.

I spoke based on the football I watched getting better each year and based on the squad getting better each season. based on us getting better each season.

I don't know if he was good enough to get us to the next stage or not and neither do you.

I do remember spending a lot of time arguing with you about whether Buxton was good enough to make the step up or whether he was a pub centre half. I said he was good enough, you said he wasn't.

I do remember spending a lot of time arguing as to whether the squad was good enough to challenge. You told me it wasn't.

I do remember you telling me I was wrong. I know it might be coming across a bit arsey but I can't forget those days.

That's what I couldn't let go of.

I couldn't let go of the fact that what I was seeing was totally different than what you were seeing. i was right on Buxton, I was right on the squad being good enough, I was right on us improving year on year, yet I've got to sit here and keep hearing that overall I was wrong, based on what exactly?

Fair play.

[Bris Vegas]

​Not entirely true my Mexico dwelling friend.

I spoke based on the football I watched getting better each year and based on the squad getting better each season. based on us getting better each season.

I don't know if he was good enough to get us to the next stage or not and neither do you.

I do remember spending a lot of time arguing with you about whether Buxton was good enough to make the step up or whether he was a pub centre half. I said he was good enough, you said he wasn't.

I do remember spending a lot of time arguing as to whether the squad was good enough to challenge. You told me it wasn't.

I do remember you telling me I was wrong. I know it might be coming across a bit arsey but I can't forget those days.

That's what I couldn't let go of.

I couldn't let go of the fact that what I was seeing was totally different than what you were seeing. i was right on Buxton, I was right on the squad being good enough, I was right on us improving year on year, yet I've got to sit here and keep hearing that overall I was wrong, based on what exactly?

Fair play.

​If the squad was good enough, but we were floundering losing more games than we were winning, that clearly answers your question on whether Clough was good enough.

We were making progress under him? Performances were better? Yes, results weren't though. We won 18 games one season and then 16 the season after, gaining less points.

We were literally going nowhere under him other than midtable obscurity.

But regarding your other points. Was the squad really good enough? Last season, I'd say we overperformed in many aspects. Players like Bryson and Ward reached levels they will never reach again.

We were both seeing the same thing under Clough. A team floundering in midtable...

You're comments about never being able to know under Clough are pointless. The same could be said about Chelsea under Ranieri before Mourinho came in, the same about Moyes at United.

 

[ronnieronalde]

​If the squad was good enough, but we were floundering losing more games than we were winning, that clearly answers your question on whether Clough was good enough.

We were making progress under him? Performances were better? Yes, results weren't though. We won 18 games one season and then 16 the season after, gaining less points.

We were literally going nowhere under him other than midtable obscurity.

But regarding your other points. Was the squad really good enough? Last season, I'd say we overperformed in many aspects. Players like Bryson and Ward reached levels they will never reach again.

We were both seeing the same thing under Clough. A team floundering in midtable...

You're comments about never being able to know under Clough are pointless. The same could be said about Chelsea under Ranieri before Mourinho came in, the same about Moyes at United.

 

​We'll never agree or see eye to eye on football issues Bris but I'l try to get the last word in anyway :-)

So, we've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about Buxton,

We've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about the squad being good enough to challenge the top 6.

We've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about the quality of Mac's signings. (I take that from your admittance on the other thread that it might be better for mac to go)

 we've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about his ability to coach mistakes out of the defence.

We've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about his ability to integrate his signings into Clough's squad.

Do you see the theme appearing and do you see why I might have difficulty in accepting your view that we'd never go anywhere other than mid table under Nige?

[Bris Vegas]

​We'll never agree or see eye to eye on football issues Bris but I'l try to get the last word in anyway :-)

So, we've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about Buxton,

We've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about the squad being good enough to challenge the top 6.

We've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about the quality of Mac's signings. (I take that from your admittance on the other thread that it might be better for mac to go)

 we've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about his ability to coach mistakes out of the defence.

We've pretty much agreed that I was right and you were wrong about his ability to integrate his signings into Clough's squad.

Do you see the theme appearing and do you see why I might have difficulty in accepting your view that we'd never go anywhere other than mid table under Nige?

You'll have to enlighten me on the following.

What did I say about Buxton? He isn't Premier League quality. Then again neither was Steve Evatt and he managed to play there!

I said the squad wasn't good enough to challenge the top six? It wasn't when I said it. Then we got in Martin, Russell, Wisdon, Bamford, Thorne plus the emergence of Hughes and it was.

Mac's signings last season were excellent. Thorne was a cracking summer buy. Bent, Lingard, Mascarell and Ince were all good loan buys. Sure, I don't think Shotton and Warnock were sensible - but neither was Sammon and Tyson. What exactly am I wrong about?

I've always maintained it's impossible to coach mistakes out of players. Natural bad habbits remain, regardless of the coach. I have no idea what you're referring to on that one.

Erm, players integrating themselves into Cloiugh's squad. Wisdom, Bamford and Thorne were excellent. Ince and Bent have scored plenty of goals, despite the latter in particular not really fitting the system. Masc was a DM cover and did well, Dawkins has contributed well. What were you right - and myself wrong - about here?

It looks like you've got some kind of agenda to prove me wrong somehow? I maintained all along that Clough wasn't good enough - I was right - and that we've improved under McClaren - I'm right..

 

[G STAR RAM]

Hardly an attack.

He is just stating his opinion based on some basic facts......basically what the forum is for?

why should that prompt a sigh? 

 

​Just saying the post doesn't really reflect the name of the thread.

Perfectly entitled to his opinion, as is everyone else.

It didn't prompt a sigh from me so not what sure why that has been mentioned.

[Dimmu]

My review:

Losing Thorne and other injuries

Never got going and still got 77 points

Totally forgot how to win a game

Rival players rate Keogh more than I do

Overall, another good season with bitter end. And I love happy endings...

[peakram]

Losing Thorne the first major blow.

Eustace being under-used when fit and behind the more eye-catching yet weak-tackling Mascarell in the pecking order when we needed more steel.

Lack of a like for like replacement if Martin got injured.

Not going in for another CDM in the window when we were short of that type of player.

Not using Hanson in that position more, or else Warnock (then when he did come in taking him off far too early leaving us wide open again with much of the game left).

Seemingly poor signings like Albentosa and Shotton, cant see us going up with those in the team. Stoke fans were saying they couldn't see Shotton getting in Derby's team at the time and I can see why. Warnock will probably be too old next season at 35 too so is a strange signing also.

Keogh an ever present when his form fluctuated at times, I think he is a slightly above average defender but not sure he is the rock to be built upon, despite not many of the others being any better.

Forsyths passing being awful for almost the entire season.

Grant losing his form in the latter months.

Christie losing his form from half way through.

Bryson not getting a run of games to get his form going for much of the season.

Too many loan wingers coming in, 5 for 2 places is totally unnecessary especially when it meant players who got us into that position in the league were being left out for them. You can say Ince was a success, but Lingard was one signing too many and left us too lightweight when he did play without achieving much.

Strange decisions like playing Russell when injured in the cup against Chesterfield after he had been on top form, and him getting injured again, which he never recovered from, then playing him down the middle when he can't hold the ball and then playing him when ill after which he was dropped when back to full health, bizarre!

A general lack of bottle in that everytime we got into pole position we had an immediate downturn in form.

Players going negative when we had a one goal lead and throwing it away.

[RamNut]

I'm not sure that there is way back for schteve - which is incredible after the optimism of last season.

but he has made a series of bad decisions. When managers make decisions through a cloud of red mist they lose the plot. Jewell was the classic example of that. simmo has been a disappointment. I really like him as a player and as a person, but a strong number 2 needs to sometimes get a grip of the manager. I'm sure peter taylor did that with brian. Schteve says he's angry and wants urgent meetings but you can't manage with a hot head. And you have to recognise you own errors first and foremost. I don't think he even accepts that he has made any errors. These things and the baggage associated with this season make it very difficult. 

Its amazing that if we drew 0-0 with Reading we would have finished 5th and the season would be regarded overall as a success in difficult circumstances.

But 3-0. 8th? 

 

[Mostyn6]

I am a bit disappointed @therams69 hasn't been back on to continue this discussion.

[ronnieronalde]

I am a bit disappointed @therams69 hasn't been back on to continue this discussion.

​maybe he got disappointed cos he registered on a forum as @theram69 and not by his real name.

maybe he didn't want people to know he was Nick, maybe he didn't want his loyalty and integrity questioned?

No matter what you think Mostyn, it's NOT easy when all you want to do is make a point on a football forum, suddenly all hell breaks loose and then someone pulls it and you apart.

It takes a thick skin to keep coming back on when that happens, it's one reason I quite admire you and @Bris Vegas cos no matter how tough it got for you both, you keep coming back.

Or maybe he's just gone to the pub and can't be arsed with all of the ********.

[Mostyn6]

​maybe he got disappointed cos he registered on a forum as @theram69 and not by his real name.

maybe he didn't want people to know he was Nick, maybe he didn't want his loyalty and integrity questioned?

No matter what you think Mostyn, it's NOT easy when all you want to do is make a point on a football forum, suddenly all hell breaks loose and then someone pulls it and you apart.

It takes a thick skin to keep coming back on when that happens, it's one reason I quite admire you and @Bris Vegas cos no matter how tough it got for you both, you keep coming back.

Or maybe he's just gone to the pub and can't be arsed with all of the ********.

​doubt it very much given that so many of his posts, when trying to get people to sign petitions etc were signed "Nick" at the bottom, and he quite clearly and regularly spoke about the flag and winning his fan of the year award etc. He never once craved the anonymity some of us do. His username is the same as his from DET before he was associated with the flag.

Bit of an unnecessary dig here, and wrong too.

[ronnieronalde]

​doubt it very much given that so many of his posts, when trying to get people to sign petitions etc were signed "Nick" at the bottom, and he quite clearly and regularly spoke about the flag and winning his fan of the year award etc. He never once craved the anonymity some of us do. His username is the same as his from DET before he was associated with the flag.

Bit of an unnecessary dig here, and wrong too.

​Come on bonnie lad, lets have a hug.

It wasn't REALLY meant as  a dig.

You're after debating a lot and I'm enjoying it.  I like arguing and I hope sometimes you enjoy it. You're not going to get an easy ride from me Mostyn.

You sometimes see my responses as a dig and I sometimes see your replies as a dig.

I'm fairly sure we're both just debating each others points.

For the record. I didn't realise theram69 was Nick the flagman, I thought it was someone else.

So I WAS wrong and I apologise for having "a dig"

[gazram80]

And to think I actually clicked on this thread thinking that it was an actual season review not just February onwards and a SM slag fest. 

[Mostyn6]

​Come on bonnie lad, lets have a hug.

It wasn't REALLY meant as  a dig.

You're after debating a lot and I'm enjoying it.  I like arguing and I hope sometimes you enjoy it. You're not going to get an easy ride from me Mostyn.

You sometimes see my responses as a dig and I sometimes see your replies as a dig.

I'm fairly sure we're both just debating each others points.

For the record. I didn't realise theram69 was Nick the flagman, I thought it was someone else.

So I WAS wrong and I apologise for having "a dig"

​apology accepted without prejudice Ronnie. I take anonymity quite seriously, simply cos some people could lose their jobs if ID was revealed!

Nick is someone I regard as a mate. I have his number and have been on a minibus ride or two with him to away games. I had a bit of a ding dong with him on twitter about this over the weekend, and suddenly got about 30 new follower requests! lol

I genuinely would like to know what has fuelled such a passionate disconnect with him, as he was purely a happy clapper during the NC era.

 

[TroyDyer]

Never really kicked on from last season in our style of play. Whether that be a Wembley hangover knocking for 6 the players freedom of expression, or the added pressure made the fear of failure weigh heavy on weak shoulders. Either way, we didn't turn up on the big occasion apart from Ipswich away. 

Injuries to key players cost us dearly, but not as much as the inability to replace those players, or adapt to a system that could get the best from the players that were fit. Playing Russell as a striker was a superb idea, and he has proved that in the past. Trying to play like he was Chris Martin, was not only a mistake, but for a manager of SM experience, was actually downright pathetic. 

Constant chopping and changing of the defence all season meant they no one settled. You had a poor game, you were out. Or in Buxtons case, you had a great game, you were out. Everyone (except Keogh and Forsyth to an extent) knew that if they farted, they would be dropped the next game. Meant we were very nervy at the back and more frightened of making a mistake, than confident to take a risk. 

All that lead to a rabbit in the headlights defence, with no leader, and no player in form enough to grab the team by the scruff of the neck, and carry them forward. Would we have made the playoffs with Buxton fit. IMO, definitely. But saying that, whos to say SM wouldn't have preferred to have played a left back. 

Hit and miss loans. Bent and Ince massive hits, Lingard a massive miss. Needed a commanding DM or CB and instead loaned a flatter to deceive winger from Man Utd. 

Overall in the recent history of Derby County an 8th place finish would be classed as decent. But to be fair, we were shopping in Lidl and had to be satisfied with an omelette. 

We all enjoy an omelette, but when you are shopping in Waitrose, and have all the makings of a fine Lobster Thermadore, and having smelt the aroma coming from the kitchen, the guests are salivating, only for you to serve them an omelette, it can only be classed as a failure. 

I just hope enough of the ingredients have survived for us to have another go. 

That was my season(ing) review.