Global Derby News

[Chris Mills]

​My sentiments entirely.Why should I spend hours posting for the benefit of others ,when I could spend minutes looking at stuff for my own benefit? I'll restrict my posts to football related matters from hereon- no brainer really-don't know why I never thought of it before.

I'm not really sure why you thought anyone would understand any of that ******** in the first place! 

[cosmic]

To be honest, I'd like to hear about your potatoes now and again, kinda breaks up the financial stuff for me. 

​A man's spuds are his own business.

[Mostyn6]

Ramblur, some of us appreciate it, but sometimes it does go over our heads. Don't take it personally. Many of us could start talking about our own areas of expertise and truly confuse everyone else.

[needles]

Please carry on Ramblur.

[Stive Pesley]

Cheers for this info RamBlur - much appreciated that there is someone capable and interested enough to investigate the financials so that the rest of us can get some idea what is going on behind the spin that the club might like to put on these things

So I'm interested in this bit

Samuel J Rush 101,622

 

Does this mean that Sam Rush is now a part-owner in the club, or an investor, or both?

So when he said at the Q&A last week that "this is my club" maybe he meant that more literally than we realised?

Does this also preclude him leaving in the summer (as was widely rumoured) if he's now a major shareholder?

 

[ramblur]

I'm not really sure why you thought anyone would understand any of that ******** in the first place! 

​Well,GreenRam seems to have understood some of it,which seems to blow that one out of the water.I could print off several copies of my OP and dish them out to a group of kids,and whilst I wouldn't expect them to understand what a share was,I would expect them to be able to tell me how many shares Sam Rush held,and whether they were ordinary or preference.I'd also expect them to be able to answer several other questions in the same vein. Therefore,as I'd expect kids to understand rather more than "any", I wonder what mental age you're owning up to?

[ramblur]

Ramblur, some of us appreciate it, but sometimes it does go over our heads. Don't take it personally. Many of us could start talking about our own areas of expertise and truly confuse everyone else.

​Let's not beat about the bush here.Compared to some of the stuff I've tried to explain,this was a stroll in the park by comparison.In essence we have numbers of shares issued,followed by which parties owned what shares,then we have the massive complication that some of the ordinary shares were issued at different prices.

I notice that you gave a 'like' to the Mr Bean post,so I assume you must have been struggling with it as well? Let me try and help you with an analogy.All of us (barring mishaps) have eight fingers and 2 thumbs in 'issue'. The left hand holds 4 fingers and 1 thumb and the right hand holds 4 fingers and 1 thumb.We also have the added bonus that (like the price of preference shares),the thumbs are the same size,and (like the price of the ordinary shares),the fingers on each hand are different sizes.I hope that helps.

[ramblur]

Please carry on Ramblur.

​Sorry Needles,but having read replies to this thread,there's no power on earth that could get me to change my mind.After years of slogging away,I think I could be excused for wanting to put my health as the number one priority.To all those who may have appreciated my work,I would commend Diag Ram to you all.His flurry of posts in the accounts thread showed a good level of knowledge,and especially his understanding of the interaction between the various companies in the group,which I think you need to be able to do the 'job' properly.He says he's an accountant,and I believe him to be the real deal.Whether he'd be prepared to put up with the hassle that appears to go with the territory may be a different matter.

As I started this thread I feel obliged to carry on replying to questions on the shares only,then finito.Sorry.

[Mostyn6]

​Let's not beat about the bush here.Compared to some of the stuff I've tried to explain,this was a stroll in the park by comparison.In essence we have numbers of shares issued,followed by which parties owned what shares,then we have the massive complication that some of the ordinary shares were issued at different prices.

I notice that you gave a 'like' to the Mr Bean post,so I assume you must have been struggling with it as well? Let me try and help you with an analogy.All of us (barring mishaps) have eight fingers and 2 thumbs in 'issue'. The left hand holds 4 fingers and 1 thumb and the right hand holds 4 fingers and 1 thumb.We also have the added bonus that (like the price of preference shares),the thumbs are the same size,and (like the price of the ordinary shares),the fingers on each hand are different sizes.I hope that helps.

​Ramblur, chill outttttttttttttt.

As it happens, I understood it (this thread), and found it interesting. I was talking in general, some of the terminology you use is quite "finance specific" and I sometimes have to consult a reference for help. NOT a criticism, so please don't be sensitive.

The Mr Bean picture just made me laugh, nothing more, nothing less. I think it illustrated some of the confusion people have! You'd be surprised, I've seen intelligent people flummoxed by simpler things than you're explaining.

[Philmycock]

Hey, very interesting stuff, let's get pp rocking

[JE90]

​I really don't know what you expect me to do here -is it that you don't understand what a company's share is? If a company prospers,why would original investors be happy to let newcomers in at the same price they paid,when such newcomers are reducing their percentage holdings,and thus reducing the percentage share of their ultimate payout?

The point about the preference shares is that the holders (according to their holdings) don't get a share of the eventual pie (other than repayment of holdings),and hence the issue price isn't so much of a concern.

As far as the giant premium on the one North American Partners' share goes,you have to realise that the constituent members of this grouping don't have individual shareholdings in Global Derby - their holdings are dictated by their individual holdings in the parent company,and they collectively hold the one ordinary share @ £28,452,203. As I said before,companies have authorised capital levels.Why issue 28,452,203 shares @£1 (thus massively eating into the authorised shares),when issuing just one does the job?

I'm sorry,but if I could explain this better,then I would.

​Would I be right in assuming the 1x £28m ordinary share quantifies the amount of debt that was converted to equity recently?

[ramblur]

Cheers for this info RamBlur - much appreciated that there is someone capable and interested enough to investigate the financials so that the rest of us can get some idea what is going on behind the spin that the club might like to put on these things

So I'm interested in this bit

Samuel J Rush 101,622

 

Does this mean that Sam Rush is now a part-owner in the club, or an investor, or both?

So when he said at the Q&A last week that "this is my club" maybe he meant that more literally than we realised?

Does this also preclude him leaving in the summer (as was widely rumoured) if he's now a major shareholder?

 

​Sam Rush would be both investor and,by extension,part owner,Green Ram.He's not a major shareholder as I calculate his holding in ordinary shares to be only 0.85% of the total issued,but if you meant the amount of loot invested,then yes it's a reasonable amount.

This wouldn't preclude him from leaving in the summer because a) He could sell his holding ,and b) I don't think such a small shareholding would preclude him from holding a directorship at another club (though I'm not absolutely sure about this).

[ramblur]

​Would I be right in assuming the 1x £28m ordinary share quantifies the amount of debt that was converted to equity recently?

​Yes,it was shown as being issued in 13/14 according to the accounts (though it probably also included the £3.7m that was put in that year). The accounts also show that 792,401 of the shares issued at £5.32 were issued during 2013/14. Mel Morris came on board before the year end,but beware of drawing any conclusions from this ! (or particularly of stating any conclusions you might harbour as being fact).

[Animal is a Ram]

​Sam Rush would be both investor and,by extension,part owner,Green Ram.He's not a major shareholder as I calculate his holding in ordinary shares to be only 0.85% of the total issued,but if you meant the amount of loot invested,then yes it's a reasonable amount.

This wouldn't preclude him from leaving in the summer because a) He could sell his holding ,and b) I don't think such a small shareholding would preclude him from holding a directorship at another club (though I'm not absolutely sure about this).

​As the FA only administers the Fit And Proper Test to a company/individual to shares over 30%, I would assume not.

 

Edit 1: Interestingly though, I can only find this information on PL teams, which may mean FL teams may be different.

 

http://www.danielgeey.com/multiple-football-club-ownership-disparities-between-rules/

 

Edit 2: "The restrictions are tighter in England, with any individual holding at least 10 per cent of one club not permitted to have more than 9.9 per cent of any other. Robert Maxwell abused this in the late 1980s when he stood down as chairman of Oxford, installing his son as his replacement, bought Derby, and transferred Dean Saunders from his old club to his new one."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-club-collectors-have-got-their-hands-on-watford-charlton-and-maybe-leeds--the-next-step-as-with-manchester-city-is-building-a-global-brand-9116168.html

[Stive Pesley]

​Sam Rush would be both investor and,by extension,part owner,Green Ram.He's not a major shareholder as I calculate his holding in ordinary shares to be only 0.85% of the total issued,but if you meant the amount of loot invested,then yes it's a reasonable amount.

 

​Is it reasonable to expect that he has invested money in return for these shares?

I sometimes get given shares in the company I work for when I do good at work

Is it possible to tell from the available docs if he holds these shares because he paid for them (ie invested his own money in the club), or if he was given them as a benefit reward for his hard work??

[ramblur]

​As the FA only administers the Fit And Proper Test to a company/individual to shares over 30%, I would assume not.

 

Edit 1: Interestingly though, I can only find this information on PL teams, which may mean FL teams may be different.

 

http://www.danielgeey.com/multiple-football-club-ownership-disparities-between-rules/

 

Edit 2: "The restrictions are tighter in England, with any individual holding at least 10 per cent of one club not permitted to have more than 9.9 per cent of any other. Robert Maxwell abused this in the late 1980s when he stood down as chairman of Oxford, installing his son as his replacement, bought Derby, and transferred Dean Saunders from his old club to his new one."

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-club-collectors-have-got-their-hands-on-watford-charlton-and-maybe-leeds--the-next-step-as-with-manchester-city-is-building-a-global-brand-9116168.html

​I must admit that 10% was the figure swimming round my head.I've a feeling this kind of discussion came up when AP was involved with us.

[ramblur]

​Is it reasonable to expect that he has invested money in return for these shares?

I sometimes get given shares in the company I work for when I do good at work

Is it possible to tell from the available docs if he holds these shares because he paid for them (ie invested his own money in the club), or if he was given them as a benefit reward for his hard work??

​Sorry,not possible to tell,although his director's emolument for 13/14 was pretty hefty compared to whatever he got the previous year.I doubt the accounts would help either,partly because we don't know for sure what price he bought at (or they were issued at). It could have been £1,£5.32, or a combination of both (same for Mel,if a certain figure happened to be pure coincidence).

[Stive Pesley]

Thanks - so it could be either

You can see why I'm asking?

Same as in my company - I can BUY shares with my own mony if I want to invest in the company, so if Sam has done that it shows that he is committed to the club's success

Equally when I get given shares as a reward, they are also effectively trying to incentivise me to stay...

[davenportram]

Ramblur I for one don't understand your posts in full but appreciate the effort and have learned from them (open minds not made of stone during daylight hours help)

 

keep posting

[We'll be back in 81]

Its all good stuff because its Rams related even if most of us dont understand the ins and outs of all this share business. What we want to know mr ramblur is if it is good news for Derby or something to be concerned about.