Stive Pesley Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think he's saying neither Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Ah I think I get it now. I don't suppose there is any 'in the name of Islam' in a secular society like France though. Not until the next Caliph is appointed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Ram Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Are you saying it was a conspiracy and mysterious masked men killed people in order to turn everybody against Muslims or are you saying the brothers weren't proper Muslims? The latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Not saying that it was fake but it seems a bit strange that the leaders forgot to completely mention the 2000 killed by the boco haram and the media gave full coverage to these shootings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 The latter. Ah ok. Well I understand the sentiment and they weren't representative of most Muslims. But they were Muslim, just like the guy in Australia, the Boston bombers, the guys in Nigeria, Canada etc and we need to confront the **** out of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Ah ok. Well I understand the sentiment and they weren't representative of most Muslims. But they were Muslim, just like the guy in Australia, the Boston bombers, the guys in Nigeria, Canada etc and we need to confront the **** out of that there are suggestions that the two (now dead brothers) were not the people who did this, the colour of skin on visible through the balaclava is very pale by comparison. Similarly, the two (now dead brothers) blamed for the obviously staged (to me) Boston bombings were dubious as suspects to say the least. Is it not odd that these terrorists never live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Ah ok. Well I understand the sentiment and they weren't representative of most Muslims. But they were Muslim, just like the guy in Australia, the Boston bombers, the guys in Nigeria, Canada etc and we need to confront the **** out of that Agree, just like the far right and people like Anders Brevik etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Agree, just like the far right and people like Anders Brevik etc... Nope. There is clearly an over representation of terrorists in the 'Muslim world'. We lived through our dark ages and came out the other side. Jihadism is a specific problem with Muslims and false equivalence doesn't help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 there are suggestions that the two (now dead brothers) were not the people who did this, the colour of skin on visible through the balaclava is very pale by comparison. Similarly, the two (now dead brothers) blamed for the obviously staged (to me) Boston bombings were dubious as suspects to say the least. Is it not odd that these terrorists never live? Perhaps I've not looked into it so will try and read up. The French government have been clamping down, so to speak, on what some might consider Islamic provocation (banning the burqa etc) but all I've got to say about these conspiracies (like 9/11 truthers) is that I can't imagine our government ever doing something like what you're inferring. Our government has shoved multiculturalism down our throats without any public consultation so it would seem strange to then stir up tension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovis aries Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Yes and I suppose there are no bodies in any of those coffins , even the ones taken to Israel . Quite honestly some of you ***** should be locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Yes and I suppose there are no bodies in any of those coffins , even the ones taken to Israel . Quite honestly some of you ***** should be locked up. Bit harsh - especially after all our 'western values' coming under attack. But generally - yeah I tend to roll my eyes at conspiracy theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Nope. There is clearly an over representation of terrorists in the 'Muslim world'. We lived through our dark ages and came out the other side. Jihadism is a specific problem with Muslims and false equivalence doesn't help What I'm saying is it's not just Muslims... Good and bad in every walk of life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What I'm saying is it's not just Muslims... Good and bad in every walk of life... Yep completely agree - but to varying degrees. When people start equating what frankly far too many Muslims believe or support these days it isn't long before they mention the crusades which says it really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Perhaps I've not looked into it so will try and read up. The French government have been clamping down, so to speak, on what some might consider Islamic provocation (banning the burqa etc) but all I've got to say about these conspiracies (like 9/11 truthers) is that I can't imagine our government ever doing something like what you're inferring. Our government has shoved multiculturalism down our throats without any public consultation so it would seem strange to then stir up tension it's nothing to do with government. The people who donate to governments are the people controlling things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 it's nothing to do with government. The people who donate to governments are the people controlling things. Oh ok. But the illuminati wouldn't back the government that pushed a particular agenda when that agenda went against the plots they'd hatched? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Nope. There is clearly an over representation of terrorists in the 'Muslim world'. We lived through our dark ages and came out the other side. Jihadism is a specific problem with Muslims and false equivalence doesn't help But it is true - you can't just ignore atrocities performed by non-muslims and call it a "false equivalence". In fact it's more of a false equivalence to call it an "over-representation" of terrorists in the muslim world. Because the muslim world is where the non-muslim world is perpetrating almost all of it's crimes - just that we're doing via armies, and not for reasons of religion. We are creating the terrorists and that's an unarguable fact. If the muslim countries had no oil and the western world left them alone, there would be no muslim terrorists. Flashback to the 80's - there were more Irish terrorist atrocities than there were muslim terrorist attacks. What's changed? Because if you're trying to say it's the muslims have just arbitrarily got "more terrorist-y" then you're having a laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 But it is true - you can't just ignore atrocities performed by non-muslims and call it a "false equivalence". In fact it's more of a false equivalence to call it an "over-representation" of terrorists in the muslim world. Because the muslim world is where the non-muslim world is perpetrating almost all of it's crimes - just that we're doing via armies, and not for reasons of religion. We are creating the terrorists and that's an unarguable fact. If the muslim countries had no oil and the western world left them alone, there would be no muslim terrorists. Flashback to the 80's - there were more Irish terrorist atrocities than there were muslim terrorist attacks. What's changed? Because if you're trying to say it's the muslims have just arbitrarily got "more terrorist-y" then you're having a laugh It is false equivalence as there is clearly an organised attempt from Jihadists to commit their crimes in the name of Allah. As much as George Bush, for example, might say he believed in God (and make no mistake this worries me) the United States is not a Christian state. In fact, the separation of church and state is written into their constitution. The only people who commit atrocities in the name of Jesus are random fruitloops and they are few and far between these days. The idea that all religion is equally as bad is simply not true. How many terrorists have practised Jainism? And you can use the 'they wouldn't do it if we weren't so nasty to them' argument as much as you want. Whilst political factors may play a part in terrorism when someone declares a holy war on me and my way of life I take them at their word. They say they do it for God, you say they do it for presumably political reasons? I'm supposed to take your word over theirs? The guys in France weren't concerned with oil - they were concerned with having their made up God insulted. There is a disproportionate amount of Muslims, both in the East and over here in the West, who take their religion so literally that it is completely at odds with our culture. It's the non-Muslim world where they are committing most of their crimes? No, most of their crimes are committed towards their own women. And apostates. And gay people. Edit - I see I read that last point wrong GR - I think the things the west do (wars, sanctions etc) are debatable. The war in Iraq wasn't popular but I've heard good reasons justifying it. The things Muslim terrorists do are not debatable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Nope. There is clearly an over representation of terrorists in the 'Muslim world'. We lived through our dark ages and came out the other side. Jihadism is a specific problem with Muslims and false equivalence doesn't help Maybe if we didn't get involved in their politics, or dropped bombs on them, or told them when they're ready to turn into a perfect democracy overnight (as if we are in the West!) - maybe then Islamic nations wouldn't be so tetchy. Yeah, of course they say they do it in the name of God, but how do you think these clerics find it so easy to recruit people? The Middle East is full of embittered and disillusioned youths who have grown up in violent, unstable countries and a lot of it is the West's fault. You said yourself we lived in the dark ages and came out the other side - that took a long time and we were left to do it ourselves. We don't need to meddle any more in the Middle East. We've done enough damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Maybe if we didn't get involved in their politics, or dropped bombs on them, or told them when they're ready to turn into a perfect democracy overnight (as if we are in the West!) - maybe then Islamic nations wouldn't be so tetchy. Yeah, of course they say they do it in the name of God, but how do you think these clerics find it so easy to recruit people? The Middle East is full of embittered and disillusioned youths who have grown up in violent, unstable countries and a lot of it is the West's fault. You said yourself we lived in the dark ages and came out the other side - that took a long time and we were left to do it ourselves. We don't need to meddle any more in the Middle East. We've done enough damage. I don't entirely disagree. But my position isn't to deny this, it is to acknowledge the very real threat that Islam poses as a theocratic dogma that is taken far too literally by far too many people. And though I wouldn't deny sociopolitical factors contribute to what is happening with regard to certain tensions, my point is it is wise not to fall into the trap of reflexively dismissing Muslim terrorists as a by-product of Western foreign policy and not take these people at their word. You are the infidel, the unbeliever and they either want to kill you or have you as their subservient dhimmi. Their actions are justified by religious text, and although other religious texts also feature heinous acts they are seldom acted upon today. That they would not be violent towards the west if it were not for the west's meddling is negated by the violence that Muslims inflict upon themselves (Sunnis/Shiites etc). And Charlie Hebdo had nothing to do with Western foreign policy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 But my position isn't to deny this, it is to acknowledge the very real threat that Islam poses as a theocratic dogma that is taken far too literally by far too many people. 1.6 billion muslims in the world - how many are terrorists, or even agree with the terrorists? There are no official figures but when a scare-mongering hate rag like the Daily Mail tells us that ISIS has 160,000 members, that's still only 0.01% of all muslims willing to die for their cause. They are a small number of extremists, extreme in views and in statistical significance. Tell yourself this is simply a problem with Islam if you like, but it really isn't. It's a problem with an unjust world that disenfranchises people so much that they end up in this dark place. That's the same with everyone who has ever killed innocent people for no sane reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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