G STAR RAM Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 All the board can do is to sanction purchases made on the recommendation of the manager - he ultimately is the person who has to take responsibility for that aspect of the club. To blame the board for the quality of the signings is, frankly, nuts. To blame them for 'wasting money' and at the same time telling them they need to spend more is even more nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m5912 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I'm not talking about the drop in season ticket numbers between the premier league season and the one after, I'm talking about the continual decline in the championship. Fans can see no realistic push for promotion, despite being told every February that there will be one, and have voted with their feet. They've stopped believing the lies if you will! I voted with my feet last season and did not renew my season ticket. The reason for this was the tactics and football being played under clough, other managers have got sides that compete and entertain on a budget , Burley at Derby, Holloway Blackpool and Palace for example. I did attend the reading match (match would mean we were part of the fixture, we were not) and felt justified in my stance as I came away dejected. However as soon as the Manager was removed I bought a season ticket and although its only been a couple of weeks with the new setup I am pleased with the start. NOTE McClaren is using the same "under invested" squad of players with the only options in the loan market. Note academy signings are not free, it takes substantial investment to keep an academy running for the 5 or 6 players we have seen come through. After the signings of Porter, Maguire, Ben Davies, Cwyfka, Bailey, Theo - who were not all bad players but for some reason fell out of favour with Clough. Would you have given this man more money to spend only to see a loss on your investment after 6-12 months? these players were signed and then scouted it would appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Funny you mention those players but not Shackell, Brayford, Bryson, Ward, Martin, etc. This owners / board argument about money is just being twisted. It's not a Jewell vs Clough transfer record argument it's a club strategy issue. Why not invest in players with sell on value? It's not throwing money away! Propping up the finances each year due to losing revenues due to downsizing the club is more of a waste (although they'll want the loans repaid so won't actually have spent anything). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Funny you mention those players but not Shackell, Brayford, Bryson, Ward, Martin, etc. This owners / board argument about money is just being twisted. It's not a Jewell vs Clough transfer record argument it's a club strategy issue. Why not invest in players with sell on value? It's not throwing money away! Propping up the finances each year due to losing revenues due to downsizing the club is more of a waste (although they'll want the loans repaid so won't actually have spent anything).Why you doing this Andy. It's not very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 No doubt the fan base was split between "owners / board to blame" and "Clough to blame". I know of both but many more of the former. It's been a great start under McClaren and I'm happy he's come in but Clough had a great start in 2009 as well. New manager / head coach bounce, hope it continues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 No doubt the fan base was split between "owners / board to blame" and "Clough to blame". I know of both but many more of the former. It's been a great start under McClaren and I'm happy he's come in but Clough had a great start in 2009 as well. New manager / head coach bounce, hope it continues! Poll. It's a new era now before yesterday I was just thinking that some would want McClaren to fall flat on his face . Well it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 What's not nice curtains? I get frustrated that 5 years has been re-written as owners / board great, Clough poor, when this is a significant distortion of the truth. I feel the need to bring some balance that's all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 What's not nice curtains? I get frustrated that 5 years has been re-written as owners / board great, Clough poor, when this is a significant distortion of the truth. I feel the need to bring some balance that's all! Devils advocate Who do you want to replace the owners I'm happy that the owners are as good as we could get and significantly better than most. Tell me which owners are better in the Championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I don't pay close enough attention to the other 23 clubs to be able to answer that. What I would like to replace our owners / board, or for them to change strategy to, is to properly invest, not just "spend", in the playing budget along the lines Clough was doing with the meagre resources available. Fund the academy, buy players with sell on value, get some in with experience. The current strategy is consistently leaving us short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I don't pay close enough attention to the other 23 clubs to be able to answer that. What I would like to replace our owners / board, or for them to change strategy to, is to properly invest, not just "spend", in the playing budget along the lines Clough was doing with the meagre resources available. Fund the academy, buy players with sell on value, get some in with experience. The current strategy is consistently leaving us short.Its costing a lot to change manager and his coaches for one thing. But I believe it was the right thing to do and I give them credit for bringing McClaren Simpson and Steele in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I don't pay close enough attention to the other 23 clubs to be able to answer that. What I would like to replace our owners / board, or for them to change strategy to, is to properly invest, not just "spend", in the playing budget along the lines Clough was doing with the meagre resources available. Fund the academy, buy players with sell on value, get some in with experience. The current strategy is consistently leaving us short. We are currently 8th in the league, does that mean the 16 teams below us all have lower budgets? Are they not 'investing' in the academy? I really don't understand how you judge if a player is going to have sell on value. Some of the signings that Clough spent a lot of time chasing were sold on at a loss or just expelled from the set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 So do I, if we had to lose Clough at least they've brought in good replacements. McClaren's time at Derby under Smith was fantastic, Simmo looks a top coach too and Steele seems to have been a top goalkeeping coach. They will still need a decent playing budget though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 It's still early to be looking at the table G Star. If you sign younger players with potential they are likely to have sell on value. Not all of them obviously. Some get injured. Some don't fulfill their potential. When you're buying young inexperienced players it is unrealistic to expect to get them all right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 It's still early to be looking at the table G Star. If you sign younger players with potential they are likely to have sell on value. Not all of them obviously. Some get injured. Some don't fulfill their potential. When you're buying young inexperienced players it is unrealistic to expect to get them all right. Out of all of the young players that signed, how many were sold on for a profit or are now worth more than when he bought them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m5912 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Funny you mention those players but not Shackell, Brayford, Bryson, Ward, Martin, etc. This owners / board argument about money is just being twisted. It's not a Jewell vs Clough transfer record argument it's a club strategy issue. Why not invest in players with sell on value? It's not throwing money away! Propping up the finances each year due to losing revenues due to downsizing the club is more of a waste (although they'll want the loans repaid so won't actually have spent anything). I did not say they were all bad, it is just the way they were exiled. Addison was the one that annoyed me the most, we never really got to see him after the injury. Shackell for me is the best defender in the division, but why was he replaced with Keogh? I forgot about Martin (david from Millwall) he made an impact. Probably the biggest one for the board is sammon, he did cost money (not 50K from Ayr United) and was on the bench. The problem we have had is that we buy 10 players to find 1. This should be done at the scouting stage. Fielding is another good example - when he came to Derby he was England U21 and was a good keeper, how has he gone downhill so fast? Only time will tell if the board will invest in January if we are serious contenders for promotion, but I don't think they will go crazy. Just a couple of million tops to strengthen for the push. Spending big money will not guarantee promotion and will set us back if we are lumbered with a couple of Ravanelli's next season and we have to start again on the re-build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Fortunately most of the ones who've turned out well haven't been sold yet. Brayford is the obvious one. Ward and Bryson would now fetch more than they were signed for. And there is plenty of sell on value throughout the squad Clough has left McClaren with. I think another poster in another thread eluded to McClaren must think it's Xmas with what he's inherited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Don't buy a Ravanelli would be rule number one! Too expensive and too old. If they want to invest in January, why not invest in the summer before? Players are better value and we get 46 games of the promotion push to benefit from them rather than only 23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Fortunately most of the ones who've turned out well haven't been sold yet. Brayford is the obvious one. Ward and Bryson would now fetch more than they were signed for. And there is plenty of sell on value throughout the squad Clough has left McClaren with. I think another poster in another thread eluded to McClaren must think it's Xmas with what he's inherited! So 3 out of the thirty or forty signings he made...hardly cause for the owners to be lavishing him with more cash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 What's not nice curtains? I get frustrated that 5 years has been re-written as owners / board great, Clough poor, when this is a significant distortion of the truth. I feel the need to bring some balance that's all! You're being overly critical for the sake of countering people you perceive as being overly positve - this might mean that you're 'bringing balance' in one regard but you're not necessarily bringing a balanced opinion. I voted 'doing ok, can't see other viable options' btw. Oh and our average attendance last season was still 1000+ higher than it was in 2003/04, but lower than any other season since 2002/3. As you've rightly said, our attendances have dropped PARTLY because we've been stuck in the Championship for a few years, but the drop is only really drastic if you're comparing immediate post-Premier league to now. If you look at the Phil Brown season we were 937 down on that last season. if you look at the 2011/12 season under Clough our average attendance shaded the Billy Davies promotion season by 76! (Figures from the Football League website) 2002/03 25469 2003/04 22199 2004/05 25219 2005/06 24165 2006/07 25944 2008/09 29440 2009/10 29230 2010/11 25892 2011/12 26020 2012/13 23228 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 You're being overly critical for the sake of countering people you perceive as being overly positve - this might mean that you're 'bringing balance' in one regard but you're not necessarily bringing a balanced opinion. I voted 'doing ok, can't see other viable options' btw. Oh and our average attendance last season was still 1000+ higher than it was in 2003/04, but lower than any other season since 2002/3. As you've rightly said, our attendances have dropped PARTLY because we've been stuck in the Championship for a few years, but the drop is only really drastic if you're comparing immediate post-Premier league to now. If you look at the Phil Brown season we were 937 down on that last season. if you look at the 2011/12 season under Clough our average attendance shaded the Billy Davies promotion season by 76! (Figures from the Football League website) 2002/03 25469 2003/04 22199 2004/05 25219 2005/06 24165 2006/07 25944 2008/09 29440 2009/10 29230 2010/11 25892 2011/12 26020 2012/13 23228 Was t 04/05 the Burley play off season - would have been boosted by later high attendances, the 05/06 a hangover from the previous good season We are at our natural championship level attendances without the surge for a play off run, or an increase following a really good season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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