the 'honest appraisal' debate.....

[Alph]

Rowett seems promising tbf.

If hope for somebody with a longer CV though.

Trapattoni got a job yet...?

[bourneyesterday]

I must admit, although it doesn’t shock me, it does surprise me just how positively people appraise the job being done by Nigel Clough and his mates here at Derby County.

 

Recent poor results at home and a cup defeat appear to have opened up the tiresome old arguments where people thrash out whether he’s done, and his still doing a good job, or whether he’s not got what it takes to improve Derby County further.

 

It’s no secret which side of the fence I am on, but on the off-chance you’re a new reader here, I’m of the belief that the current coaching set-up is inadequate. That doesn’t necessarily mean I want Clough out, but I definitely, without doubt, believe there needs to be a shake-up of the coaching staff. I think a specialist defensive coach, and an experienced assistant manager, one who is experienced in dealing with the natural confidence and ego that comes with the better players (we WILL need at some point if we are to progress) are vital to any progress. As it happens, Clough has no intention of putting Derby County FC before the financial well-being of his mates, so on that basis, by default, I am Clough Out.

 

So, back to the appraisals that are almost apologetically given in Clough’s defence as people desperately clutch at straws in trying to justify his continuation in the job. I’d be very harsh and unreasonable if I was to suggest that Clough has not done some good things during his time in charge. Personally, he’s bought a bit of moral fibre to the club. He’s clearly a man of honesty and loyalty and whilst qualities in everyday life, perhaps in the cut-throat, “people don’t matter” environment of professional football, these are not ingredients in the recipe for success. Nevertheless, I used to feel almost ‘ripped off’ during the Paul Jewell era, as players didn’t even go through the motions, and in many cases, were not fit to wear the shirt. I think it’s true to say that if Derby lose a game under Clough, it’s most likely to be as a result of lack of quality, lack of concentration and lack of leadership, and not like under Jewell where it was lack of interest and commitment!

 

Many of those that defend Clough’s management point to the development of Hendrick, Hughes and Bennett, but I personally believe that quality players will come through the ranks regardless. I also believe that in the cases of Hendrick and Hughes, their introduction to the team was more out of accident than by design. Had players not been injured and the squad not been neglected in certain areas, neither player would have made their debut in the way they did. Both were also at the club before Clough arrived, so I am uncertain what Clough deserves credit for here.

 

Clough has overseen many subtle improvements, without being solely responsible for them, and these collectively have resulted in the club being much healthier than it was when he arrived. If I was to use a crude analogy, the club was a malnourished and abandoned greyhound with all kinds of illness and disease, now, after some attention, the dog is no longer ill, but is just about ready to start training to be a racing dog, and now needs a trainer and not a nurse. Clough is a nurse.

 

What has astounded me more than anything in recent weeks is the level of excuses being offered and the bizarre implications that they cause. Comments like “we’d have won but the opposition stopped us playing!”, “we play really well apart from defence, attack and crossing”, “we were the best side until the last half hour”!! ALL ridiculous statements, with the implication that the opposition should step aside and let us win!

 

Defending/Attacking/Crossing can be rubbish but the team can still be judged positively, and games aren’t 90 minutes long all of a sudden.

 

There’s a thing in sport known as the “winning formula”. I wouldn’t argue that Clough and Derby haven’t got half the formula sussed, but we need the full formula before we can win ugly, hold on to leads, beat Leicester/Reading etc, have a cup run, a long unbeaten run etc. I struggle to give credit for half a formula. I don’t agree that money needs throwing at it, in either wages or transfers. George Burley managed to create the formula to hit the top six, without spending a single penny on transfers! Clough has spent money, and has spent what he’s had in a way he’s seen fit. When I asked at the fans forum how much had been spent on loan fees, I was told almost £5m, and this was before Forsyth, Martin and Smith were loaned. There are several questionable purchases such as Dave Martin, Chris Maguire and the cash spent on Connor Sammon, but it wouldn’t be fair if I neglected to mention considerably successful signings Brayford, Fielding, Buxton, Bryson, Ward, Coutts, Bailey and now Martin. So perhaps credit on the whole is due there, but a lot is neutralised by waste of resources.

 

Those fans who back Clough have recently attempted to discredit the importance of tactics, and to some extent they’re correct. But it’s obvious that tactics do have a place in the “winning formula”, we have certainly been beaten by tactics! On the other side of the fence, us that aren’t happy with the current set-up can easily see the lack of nous on display, the inability to react to adversity and the naïve instructions which actually leave us more likely to concede when being more defensive!

 

As a Derby fan, my ambition for the club will always be to be entertaining and competitive, and in recent times, there’s certainly been no lack of incident. So why the feeling of such despondency in some of us? I think it’s seeing other managers do better in similar or worse situations. We can all point to the teams that have bigger budgets and expensively assembled squads, but there’s nothing we can do about that! I personally get depressed that there are plenty of managers who have that ‘magic touch’ that means they can create something special without spending millions. Over the years there’ve been loads of these. It’s obvious to me, that whilst Clough is steady, he has no ‘magic touch’, will never get the ‘winning formula’ and will always finish below both the managers with big budgets (aside of the odd exception), and below those managers with the magic touch.

 

I can see the good work Clough has done. But all I see now and the future, is Clough limiting Derby and holding the club back.

The next time a prem vacancy arrises lets see if clough or Dyche's names are mentioned, i know which one i think it might be.

Time for a change i'm afraid.

[Ambitious]

Are you saying that because you think they are the genuinely best contenders or becasue they both have the Derby connection

 

I just think these would genuinely be on the list, I wouldn't mind either in all honesty. 

 

Powell has done a terrific job at Charlton with no budget at all, and Rowett continues to amaze me with what he does, when they're definitely a have-not in that division. 

 

As for who I would like, I really couldn't muster a strong contender - I wouldn't mind seeing someone like Mike Phelan given a chance. 

[Ambitious]

Rowett seems promising tbf.

If hope for somebody with a longer CV though.

Trapattoni got a job yet...?

 

Would be delighted with Trap but somehow I don't think we could afford him 

[Alph]

Would be delighted with Trap but somehow I don't think we could afford him

He likes Hendrick and Sammon.

Flirting might work.

[Ambitious]

He likes Hendrick and Sammon.

Flirting might work.

 

Would be an unreal coup, really would. He was 7 figure sums a year for ireland though, really expensive manager. 

[Asanovic]

I think we're starting to look tactically sound - just need to cut out the daft goals. That's opinion, you can disagree with it all you want but I don't need reminding that we've conceded daft goals and lost games - I've seen them. I still think we're looking good.

 

We keep the ball well, are good going forward and have finally found a striker or two who can stick it in the net. We need to improve defensively, whether that's done through recruitment or training I don't know.

 

5 year appraisal - learning curve. For Nige, for us, for the players. But overall it's a ship that's been steadied, and this is the first time we've had a side that looks like it could challenge for top six, and that's what I expect. If we're not in and around that top six then maybe it's time for a change. Maybe not. 

 

Everything, IMO, has improved overall - quality of recruitment, tactics, attractive football. But this requires time and patience, which our supporters don't have. As a result, the support has worsened.

 

The funny thing is that these posts only come out when we lose. Mostyn, put your hand on your heart and tell me you'd have posted this if we'd have won last night. I'm all for opinions on the manager, but it's so 'game by game' it's untrue.

 

You'll always garner favour when moaning about the manager after we get beat. Post something similar to this if we beat forest and see the reaction.

[Mostyn6]

The funny thing is that these posts only come out when we lose. Mostyn, put your hand on your heart and tell me you'd have posted this if we'd have won last night. I'm all for opinions on the manager, but it's so 'game by game' it's untrue.

 

You'll always garner favour when moaning about the manager after we get beat. Post something similar to this if we beat forest and see the reaction.

 

without being irrational, why should I? WINNING is the aim of the game. When we win, we are hitting our target, when we lose we are not. You big up any team that comes down from the Premier League as if it's a given they should beat us, but as with our relegation, no such thing.

 

For me, Nigel would have to win 80% of the games for the rest of the season before I considered him to 'break even' for all the BAD results he's managed us to.

[Mostyn6]

ps. If we win and you don't see me on Saturday, it's cos I'm off to Ibiza.

[Asanovic]

without being irrational, why should I? WINNING is the aim of the game. When we win, we are hitting our target, when we lose we are not. You big up any team that comes down from the Premier League as if it's a given they should beat us, but as with our relegation, no such thing.

 

For me, Nigel would have to win 80% of the games for the rest of the season before I considered him to 'break even' for all the BAD results he's managed us to.

 

The first three words are impossible. You're being irrational posting stuff like this only when we lose.

 

Winning is the aim - it doesn't mean the manager is incompetent if he doesn't win every game. If your feelings are a constant throughout, it should reflect in the forum. Otherwise you're just going with the flow - sing when you're winning, if you like.

 

If we win 80% of the games this season, we'd go up, and likely as champions. That would break even all the 'bad' he's done?

 

I've not alot to say to that.

[Mostyn6]

The first three words are impossible. You're being irrational posting stuff like this only when we lose.

 

Winning is the aim - it doesn't mean the manager is incompetent if he doesn't win every game. If your feelings are a constant throughout, it should reflect in the forum. Otherwise you're just going with the flow - sing when you're winning, if you like.

 

If we win 80% of the games this season, we'd go up, and likely as champions. That would break even all the 'bad' he's done?

 

I've not alot to say to that.

 

 

well that's the thing, the 80% would break him even. The promotion itself would elevate him to being a top manager.. although it's all a moot point, we aren't capable of winning 80% of the next 10 games let alone the next 40!

 

Asanovic, aside from my misguided enthusiasm and optimism as a result of signing Johnny Russell and Nigel Clough finally going to get a basic coaching qualification, I've always dampened any enthusiasm of people getting carried away with victory, and when I think it's unwarranted, I always tell people who are over-reacting to a defeat to get a grip. I've consistently said that Nigel Clough hasn't got the attributes (in the WHOLE coaching team) to achieve the level of improvement we want.

[Ambitious]

well that's the thing, the 80% would break him even. The promotion itself would elevate him to being a top manager.. although it's all a moot point, we aren't capable of winning 80% of the next 10 games let alone the next 40!

 

Asanovic, aside from my misguided enthusiasm and optimism as a result of signing Johnny Russell and Nigel Clough finally going to get a basic coaching qualification, I've always dampened any enthusiasm of people getting carried away with victory, and when I think it's unwarranted, I always tell people who are over-reacting to a defeat to get a grip. I've consistently said that Nigel Clough hasn't got the attributes (in the WHOLE coaching team) to achieve the level of improvement we want.

 

In fairness, I will back you up here.

 

Mostyn is as straight as they come, and will stand by his word - even if he thinks Warnock is the answer to us being promoted  (only joking dear  )

[Mostyn6]

In fairness, I will back you up here.

 

Mostyn is as straight as they come, and will stand by his word - even if he thinks Warnock is the answer to us being promoted  (only joking dear  )

 

 

I think we have established that there's no such thing as an answer, I certainly don't think Warnock is the answer. I think he's a better answer than Clough is, but there are no guarantees when appointing someone else. Every good manager has a bad job in him, many bad managers have a good job in them. I struggle to accept fear of not knowing who the next manager is as a good enough reason to continue with a manager that in honesty, we ALL know won't improve, in a job.

[Ambitious]

I think we have established that there's no such thing as an answer, I certainly don't think Warnock is the answer. I think he's a better answer than Clough is, but there are no guarantees when appointing someone else. Every good manager has a bad job in him, many bad managers have a good job in them. I struggle to accept fear of not knowing who the next manager is as a good enough reason to continue with a manager that in honesty, we ALL know won't improve, in a job.

 

Why did Clough's Derby always finish above and beat Warnocks Leeds though? that's another story mind.

 

two recent candidates I have said I wouldn't have minded was Kenny Jacket and Sean Dyche - now, I'm thinking Chris Powell (a few charlton fans want him out, daft enough) and Gary Rowett. 

 

But 80% of people probably won't agree - there simply is no viable candidate, even the list at Sunderland looks incredibly weak IMO.

 

If you're looking for an experienced manager, Steve McClaren or Alex McLeish? 

[Gary Teale]

To be fair warnocks record is pretty good and wipes the floor with most at this level. It's just he is a bit of a mad man.

Pulis his football is terrible but he gets teams organised and we wouldn't mind stokes record in the last 5 years. Can't be more boring than what's served up currently where the life seems to have gone out of the club. That's why everyone I know isn't going, they are just board what's on offer

[ronnieronalde]

well that's the thing, the 80% would break him even. The promotion itself would elevate him to being a top manager.. although it's all a moot point, we aren't capable of winning 80% of the next 10 games let alone the next 40!

 

Asanovic, aside from my misguided enthusiasm and optimism as a result of signing Johnny Russell and Nigel Clough finally going to get a basic coaching qualification, I've always dampened any enthusiasm of people getting carried away with victory, and when I think it's unwarranted, I always tell people who are over-reacting to a defeat to get a grip. I've consistently said that Nigel Clough hasn't got the attributes (in the WHOLE coaching team) to achieve the level of improvement we want.

 

 

When you keep adding bits like that, it shows you're pushing a point for the sake of it. We've had this row pretty consistently as well.

 

You don't need to make crap up to have a go at him.

[Gaspode]

I think we're starting to look tactically sound.....

 

Apart from when another manager does a job on us (as Pearson and Adkins both have in recent weeks). Clough has identified a way he wants us to play and it works extremely well in some situations....the problem is when it doesn't work, we're unable to change (whether that's a change of formation or by bringing on substitutes that can offer something different). Tactics are about being able to change to deal with different situations - we just aren't very good at it (or, some would say, the manager is too stubborn to admit that we need to change)

[Ambitious]

Apart from when another manager does a job on us (as Pearson and Adkins both have in recent weeks). Clough has identified a way he wants us to play and it works extremely well in some situations....the problem is when it doesn't work, we're unable to change (whether that's a change of formation or by bringing on substitutes that can offer something different). Tactics are about being able to change to deal with different situations - we just aren't very good at it (or, some would say, the manager is too stubborn to admit that we need to change)

 

Yeah but look at the quality in both of the sides you mentioned.

 

I'd kill to have some of the players Leicester or Readings side at this level.

[bristolram]

Time to get Chris Powell, done a great job at Charlton

[Alph]

That's one thing that baffles me.

If Nige isn't up to the task then why isn't there pressure on him all the time? Of course he's not going to lose them all. If his win ratio isn't high enough (it's ok saying its such and such % but there's other factors. What's Martinez PL ratio with Wigan?) then he's simply got to be forced out.

I think 8 games in though and getting knocked out the cup by Leicester would be a bad starting point to chase him out. People should have done it from last February or something when it became clear we were having another 'nothing' year.

There's not much pressure from fans on him. Just a lot of knee jerk when we lose. And it's the silly knee jerk reactions that can't be taken seriously.

I don't include you mostyn because you keep the same line win/lose/draw. Like you say he'd have to have a remarkable turn around of wins to convince you he's up to the task.

But other people are too easily swayed by the odd result.

I'm gutted with the Reading result. But I can step back and say Reading are better than us and our season is still alive. Nothing was lost on Saturday. It's a wound that's all.

I've said it a lot and I stick by it. I encourage people to share the same view too.

This season is the strongest squad Nigel is likely to have. Next year it's possibly we could be weaker (Hughes? Hendrick?). We could be the same but we're unlikely to be significantly stronger. There's options on the bench that Nigel bought. So if we don't make some serious steps towards promotion this year then he should let someone else have a go. He's had his best shot.

If we miss out by the odd point or two then he's got 1 year left on his contract (?) and I really would expect that to be his last or promotion. Do or die.

If our season is over in February again and we're looking at the Play Offs through binoculars then these decent players have not achieved their potential as a team. He needs to step aside because it won't get much easier and he's be leaving a half decent bunch for the next manager.