What is an Engineer?

[Mary Hindge]

Well I think the driver was using his head to break with at the time, does that count?

[Phoenix]

I think you should check with the Guiness Book of Records. They may be able to 'engineer' an entry.

[Mostyn6]

Do you have an involvement in that area? its a view I've not come across before, I usually think of engineering as something for the consumer with new technology and transport, etc.

 

yes, I've worked in Automotive, Aerospace, Rail, Plant, Construction and and Heavy Goods (Handling) Products. I've worked with engineers in all of these areas and whilst they all strictly do different jobs, I think about 2/3 of their courses at Uni were the same as each other before deciding what to specialise in.

[Boycie]

Engineer is a term thrown about loosely now days.

Refuse engineer.

Elderly client cleansing engineer.

You see what I'm saying?

[sheeponacid]

Is it some one who climbs engines?

[Gritstone Ram]

Engineer is a term thrown about loosely now days.

Refuse engineer.

Elderly client cleansing engineer.

You see what I'm saying?

A Pi55 engineer.

Oh sorry that's Artist.

[SillyBilly]

You can almost divide the people who work in engineering into two parts, the professional and the frontliner.

 

You come across these people every now again in work (and in life) who can just look at a machine, instrument, moving part, whatever it may be and instantly understand how it works, how to build it and how to fix it. It could be the Hadron collider or a brake press, they'd be quite happy under the lid working away. They're often from somewhere like Yorkshire with no formal qualifications, but a business would pay them whatever they demanded, utterly irreplaceable. No school of engineering could give them a more comprehensive education than the experience they've acquired.

 

You then also have the products of the universities, can produce drawings of immense complexity, can dance with mathematics all night long and design the most breathtaking feats of human achievement. They're a different breed though and you sometimes get the impression they're completed detached from what they've actually in part helped to create, to the point where I'm not sure they'd know which end to hold a screwdriver.

 

Its such a wide ranging discipline and with todays technology you need both types of engineer. My own view of engineering is always perhaps leading me to respecting that bit of grease and oil on the clothing a bit more as a "skill" that can't be taught in a classroom. I'm a scientist by the way and have worked with engineers of both types on various projects right the way up to nuclear reactors where it doesn't get much more complicated.

 

When I hear anyone say Engineer as their profession, I instantly accord respect as I know its a demanding discipline whatever end of the spectrum you come from. I agree the title has been hijacked somewhat by employers baiting people with falsely advertised positions with engineer bolted on the end. My respect to all you engineers!

[Mostyn6]

You can almost divide the people who work in engineering into two parts, the professional and the frontliner.

 

You come across these people every now again in work (and in life) who can just look at a machine, instrument, moving part, whatever it may be and instantly understand how it works, how to build it and how to fix it. It could be the Hadron collider or a brake press, they'd be quite happy under the lid working away. They're often from somewhere like Yorkshire with no formal qualifications, but a business would pay them whatever they demanded, utterly irreplaceable. No school of engineering could give them a more comprehensive education than the experience they've acquired.

 

You then also have the products of the universities, can produce drawings of immense complexity, can dance with mathematics all night long and design the most breathtaking feats of human achievement. They're a different breed though and you sometimes get the impression they're completed detached from what they've actually in part helped to create, to the point where I'm not sure they'd know which end to hold a screwdriver.

 

Its such a wide ranging discipline and with todays technology you need both types of engineer. My own view of engineering is always perhaps leading me to respecting that bit of grease and oil on the clothing a bit more as a "skill" that can't be taught in a classroom. I'm a scientist by the way and have worked with engineers of both types on various projects right the way up to nuclear reactors where it doesn't get much more complicated.

 

 

I'm with you on that. I've seen graduates fresh out of Uni and onto a building site, unable to communicate with a rough-looking tattoo-faced brick-layer and just sinking into their own shell.

 

When I've been involved in recruiting engineers, I've always found myself leaning towards the practical engineer who is able to get on the tools and has experienced a burn, cut or friction injury from using them over someone who's experience is all theory and design.

[SillyBilly]

I'm with you on that. I've seen graduates fresh out of Uni and onto a building site, unable to communicate with a rough-looking tattoo-faced brick-layer and just sinking into their own shell.

 

When I've been involved in recruiting engineers, I've always found myself leaning towards the practical engineer who is able to get on the tools and has experienced a burn, cut or friction injury from using them over someone who's experience is all theory and design.

 

Aye, seen it before too. Universities increasingly appear to shelter students from people who "work for a living". I once got asked by a colleague why I don't put my "letters" in my email signature, where I was working at the time, I wanted to be a member of the team, not a jumped up tosser. They're the same people who look at you quizzingly when you seem to be interested in what the cleaner has got up to over the weekend. I suppose I know where I've come from and not considering yourself above anyone, is in my opinion, the best way to finding yourself in the workplace. Some graduates, like you say, appear to be horrified to think they have to leave the office and speak with the workers.

[Oxram]

I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree slightly. To be a registered professional Engineer with the engineering council you need your Bachelors or Masters degree along side practical experience.The people you seem to be referring to as professional are only half qualified if all they have is a degree.

The chances are a graduate won't know what they are doing, as anyone who watched that junior doctor series on BBC will have seen. They have a far greater academic grounding than a BEng before gaining any experience and still some look out of there depth with even the smallest of tasks.

A university's role is to give the student an academic grounding, I took a year out for my third year to gain experience and gained only basic practical experience actually at university. Having the university mock real industry experience would be pointless when there is real industry waiting with the ability to train graduates in exactly the way the employer desires.

[Mostyn6]

I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree slightly. To be a registered professional Engineer with the engineering council you need your Bachelors or Masters degree along side practical experience.The people you seem to be referring to as professional are only half qualified if all they have is a degree.

The chances are a graduate won't know what they are doing, as anyone who watched that junior doctor series on BBC will have seen. They have a far greater academic grounding than a BEng before gaining any experience and still some look out of there depth with even the smallest of tasks.

A university's role is to give the student an academic grounding, I took a year out for my third year to gain experience and gained only basic practical experience actually at university. Having the university mock real industry experience would be pointless when there is real industry waiting with the ability to train graduates in exactly the way the employer desires.

 

 

Practical experience is VERY VERY different to being there as an employee, fending for yourself, being expected to do the do and not there as an unpaid placement student where your tasks are cherry-picked for you.

 

I worked somewhere were a graduate came back 3 years after placement, and it was a totally different kettle of fish.

[Oxram]

Practical experience is VERY VERY different to being there as an employee, fending for yourself, being expected to do the do and not there as an unpaid placement student where your tasks are cherry-picked for you.

 

I worked somewhere were a graduate came back 3 years after placement, and it was a totally different kettle of fish.

Ive gained all my engineering experience, even before I graduated, as a payed employee. I was very lucky to get the jobs I did and I know people who have worked for free for a number of years to gain experience but if anything that just highlights my point. Instead of criticizing a graduates lack of experience and blaming there solely academic background you could maybe help them out and help them in gaining the experience.

[Mostyn6]

Ive gained all my engineering experience, even before I graduated, as a payed employee. I was very lucky to get the jobs I did and I know people who have worked for free for a number of years to gain experience but if anything that just highlights my point. Instead of criticizing a graduates lack of experience and blaming there solely academic background you could maybe help them out and help them in gaining the experience.

 

 

Whoa whoa whoa... slow down there.... instead of what now....?

 

I've criticised nobody, an observation is an observation. I suggest you read back to what I've written and not be so defensive. 

 

As I've said, there are vast types of engineer, but in MY fields, I have gained a perception based on my experiences.

[Oxram]

okay Ive read your posts again but I see it the same.

"someone who's experience is all theory and design." is the point im reffering to as a criticism of their lack of practical experience.

"Practical experience is VERY VERY different to being there as an employee, fending for yourself¹, being expected to do the do² and not there as an unpaid placement student where your tasks are cherry-picked for you³." to me I read this as a graduate gaining experience is spoon fed¹, not pulling their weight² and gets the simple stuff³.

I can see how that can be true if someone comes in on work experience as like the 'work experience' guy but when I say practical experience I mean fully employed member of the engineering team gaining real industry pressured experience.

[Mostyn6]

nope, you're reading out of context. you quote "someone who's experience is all theory and design" but don't continue to say what I'm saying about that person...

 

the second paragraph is exactly that. Placement staff are given the easier duties, this is much to do with liability, cost of error, difficulty of job etc as anything else, so don't be so touchy. This is relative to most industries, a newly qualified surgeon won't get to do the tricky brain surgery over the experienced surgeon who's done 100s.

 

You need to be less touchy, experience is something you have to earn, no matter how good you are naturally, people who have to answer for your mistakes will insist on new staff gradually building up the level of responsibility.

 

My example, if you care to read back was specifically about the construction industry, where the labourers and tradesman can be very intimidating and I've seen many examples of intelligent and hard-working graduates, who know how to do the job, turn up on site and shrink.

[RamNut]

An engineer is someone who bends a design out of shape, and is late with their information.

A really good engineer works with their eyes shut.

[mozza]

Engineers work to the nearest thousandth ,

 

i work 'spot on'..

 

[uttoxram75]

I can only judge on my own experience but an engineer is someone you have to drag kicking and screaming out of the canteen to fix a production line.............

[Oxram]

nope, you're reading out of context. you quote "someone who's experience is all theory and design" but don't continue to say what I'm saying about that person...

 

the second paragraph is exactly that. Placement staff are given the easier duties, this is much to do with liability, cost of error, difficulty of job etc as anything else, so don't be so touchy. This is relative to most industries, a newly qualified surgeon won't get to do the tricky brain surgery over the experienced surgeon who's done 100s.

 

You need to be less touchy, experience is something you have to earn, no matter how good you are naturally, people who have to answer for your mistakes will insist on new staff gradually building up the level of responsibility.

 

My example, if you care to read back was specifically about the construction industry, where the labourers and tradesman can be very intimidating and I've seen many examples of intelligent and hard-working graduates, who know how to do the job, turn up on site and shrink.

I guess we have experience of different models. I gained my first experience in Formula 1 where there aren't many projects that are what you might class as starter projects. I know people with more experience and a better reputation do the harder jobs but even carrying on with your extreme example a brand new surgeon will have important surgery to do and I felt it was important that people who read your posts didn't get the impression grads get payed for making the tea, to give my own extreme example.

I know experience is something you have to earn. If you care to read back, my point was you need to give grads the chance to earn experience and not just expect them to immediately deal with the situations they are in.

I know your example was the construction industry, I can't see the point Ive made that your referring to. No matter what industry a grad will find it very intimidating up against somebody who has all the experience.

Yes I was defensive and 'touchy' but you'll find it was in responce to your agressive CAPS and I felt your post would put others off from expanding there recruitment to graduates if they read this thread.

 

[Mostyn6]

people will always employ graduates. Don't panic.