is the 'Derby County way' working?

[needles]

You don't sound confident Needles?

 

 

Who is? We never get 'owt from Cardiff or Leicester recently.

[Rampant Rob]

Lets go all out for promotion like Leicester. £30 million in debt, 500k a week in wages and still only fifth.

[CornwallRam]

We are a midtable team. To go higher we need something like five players of noticably better quality than we have. Bringin in players of such quality is expensive - and not part of the current strategy. This gap could be, eventually, bridged by the development of the young players. Hoganson, Freeman, Hughes, Hendrick, O'Brien, Bennett and Jacobs could all develop into those missing 'top six' players.

 

There are two problems with this.

 

1, They won't all continue to develop. The chances are that half of the players on that list have probably peaked - and we have no idea which ones.

 

2, If they become outstanding players they will want to move to a better team - as I don't think that enough of them will come through at the same time to make us one of those 'better teams'. In theory this might not be a disater as we can expect a hefty transfer fee, which could enable us to bring in some more quality. However, there is still the matter of the huge annual losses to consider. If Hughes went for £10m do you really think that Nigel will get enough to buy and pay for a replacement Hughes and another 'promotion' quality player? I'd suggest that it would be more of a one for one replacement and £7m going to cover the losses.The net effect is that we still end up short of a promotion chasing side.

 

I hope that I'm wrong, but I can't see our current methodology ever working, and that's without even considering that the EPPP rules will prevent us ever having another Hughes.

[CornwallRam]

Lets go all out for promotion like Leicester. £30 million in debt, 500k a week in wages and still only fifth.

As opposed to £34m in debt and still only 13th and no realistic chance of ever achieving promotion?

[needles]

The £30m was lost in one year, 2011/12.

[CornwallRam]

The £30m was lost in one year, 2011/12.

I'm not saying the Leicester way is right, but I don't see how it is condemned whilst ours is lauded.

 

They are trying to achieve promotion quickly, and spending a lot, but giving them an achievable goal with the potential that their losses could be quickly reversed.

 

We are trying to spend as little as possible, and failing to progress, which continually shrinks the club, which means that the owners have to spend a lot, but without an achievable way of ever stemming the losses.

 

Leicester's is a gamble, but one that may succeed. Ours is also a gamble, but one that has no apparent chance of success. Eventually our way will cost more.

[ramesses]

We are a midtable team. To go higher we need something like five players of noticably better quality than we have. Bringin in players of such quality is expensive - and not part of the current strategy. This gap could be, eventually, bridged by the development of the young players. Hoganson, Freeman, Hughes, Hendrick, O'Brien, Bennett and Jacobs could all develop into those missing 'top six' players.

 

There are two problems with this.

 

1, They won't all continue to develop. The chances are that half of the players on that list have probably peaked - and we have no idea which ones.

 

2, If they become outstanding players they will want to move to a better team - as I don't think that enough of them will come through at the same time to make us one of those 'better teams'. In theory this might not be a disater as we can expect a hefty transfer fee, which could enable us to bring in some more quality. However, there is still the matter of the huge annual losses to consider. If Hughes went for £10m do you really think that Nigel will get enough to buy and pay for a replacement Hughes and another 'promotion' quality player? I'd suggest that it would be more of a one for one replacement and £7m going to cover the losses.The net effect is that we still end up short of a promotion chasing side.

 

I hope that I'm wrong, but I can't see our current methodology ever working, and that's without even considering that the EPPP rules will prevent us ever having another Hughes.

 

I'm not sure how lucky we'll be with the youth development, but I'm hoping you're wrong about the bit I've bolded. If you’re right then maybe it would be better for the owners to take a hit on their investment so far and sell up now.

 

If Plan B isn’t to allow Clough (or another manager) to spend most of what he makes through youth development to fund a realistic promotion push, then I’ve no idea what reason they have for continuing to own the club. That’s about the only strategy I can see for us/them getting out of this division and getting access to the PL money that would clear their debts.

[Pearson]

Problem is that with two monster games coming up and confidence low, the nay-sayers and boo-boys are going to have a field day.

 

I have always believed and indeed am convinced that good performances will ultimately lead to positive results.

 

Currently we are not having the roll of the ball with Friday night being a good example. They had a fluke with a knock on after a tackle, every second ball fell to a defender in the box and every snap shot we had took a deflection.

 

If we maintain this level of performance our luck will change we will win one of these games.

[Woodys woman]

I'm not saying the Leicester way is right, but I don't see how it is condemned whilst ours is lauded.

They are trying to achieve promotion quickly, and spending a lot, but giving them an achievable goal with the potential that their losses could be quickly reversed.

We are trying to spend as little as possible, and failing to progress, which continually shrinks the club, which means that the owners have to spend a lot, but without an achievable way of ever stemming the losses.

Leicester's is a gamble, but one that may succeed. Ours is also a gamble, but one that has no apparent chance of success. Eventually our way will cost more.

This is known as ********!

[Ambitious]

I'll begin by saying, personally, I feel the club is slightly under achieving this season. We should be building on our finish last season, but currently we're in a rut that could well see us finishing in the bottom half.

 

We all know the board are trying to cut the wage bill and build on the youth system, but is it working?

 

We seem to be repeating the same form each season. We start quite strong, then seem to go through a stage where we can't buy a win. Is this because of a lack of experience in the squad or perhaps a sign of players 'not up to the job'.

 

I'm not here to slate Clough, the defense or even our short of confidence striker. What are your opinions on the 'Derby County way'?? Is it working? Are we destined for Mid-table premier league, or are we destined for trouble?

 

 

I would argue we're perhaps a little bit above where we should be, or at the most where we should be.

 

I think if you look subjectively at our team, and I mean really look at our team taking complete bias away from it, there is absolutely no call for us 'under-achieving' - but at the same time it's not a nice thought either.

 

We've got 2 okay/good keepers - these keepers are absolutely fine, and one position we don't need to strengthen. They aren't amazing, and I think the England call up flattered Fielding but that being said, these could probably play in the premier league, happily but these aren't unbeatable. They both could play for a top 6 championship side, and have the quality - I think Legzdins is perhaps the more prominent keeper, but is more prone to making a mistake. 

 

The defence is average, perhaps below average.. Brayford is a top 6 player in this division, no-one will dispute that - or shouldn't but that for me is where anything close to the 'top 6' quality comes to an end. The other first team choices in Keogh, Buxton and Roberts, don't get me wrong - I like them, but I don't consider them 'top 6' quality. Keogh is a good championship centre back, worth what we paid for him and can play with the ball too which is a nice commodity but he isn't unbeatable, he doesn't possess the same dominance as a top centre half should, he is just as good as Shackell IMO which makes me think the summer transfer 'swap' was a bit of a waste of time. Roberts has been a good servant for us, last season especially I didn't think there were many left backs in the division as good as him, and the start of this season he was just as strong, recently he has been failing of the pace and more and more goals have been down to him losing his individual battles. Buxton, whilst under-rated by most for me, as I do think he is a okay championship centre back, and I do believe that - he does the basics very well, and more often than not will win his 'individual battles' and is a strong reliable player but he lacks the raw ability to be anything more, he is slow on his feet. Look past the first line of defence and you've got O'Connor who I don't think is good enough for this level, and the group of kids in Freeman, Gjokaj, MOB and Hoganson and these are players that have all shown promise when given the chance, but none of which I would be comfortable with playing week in week out at this level, yet. The last one is obviously Shaun Barker - I've done exactly the same injury as him, and all i've been told is how rough the recovery will be, and how it is very unlikely i'll be the same player which is why i'm not holding out for much hope, but, that being said he strikes me as key member of the dressing room, and intelligent footballing player who i've had the pleasure of meeting a few times, and every time i've spoke to him, he has impressed me so I have a lot of time for him, and think if he can anything back to what he was it'll be fantastic for the club! I don't mind our defence, but it's lacking, hopefully next year the younger players will have more of an impact and can cover injuries which will help no end, but in terms of having the quality to be playing at the right end of the table, only Brayford and Keogh show they could do it, and potentially Barker! 

 

Now on to the midfield, our midfield is as talented as any other in the division working together, and have so much ability and potential. BUT glaring weaknesses all the same. I find it hard to say who is top 6 quality and who isn't in our midfield because I think they've all shown themselves to have that quality in abundance but they've all shown inconsistency and gone missing for months on end. Coutts, he was such a revelation when he came into the team - was easily our best player for the opening part of the season with one problem, he wasn't scoring enough goals - and since November time he has become part of the fixture rather than a stand out player, he is decent - he is a talented player, but at the minute that drive had he isn't showing and past couple of months he has looked nothing more than an average championship player... brings me onto Hughes, I like most imagine was excited and a bit cautious when he was named as a first 11 player early on in the season, he dipped his feet in slowly but then November/December he had 2 months of being our best player, putting in some incredible performances for instance the one against Leeds, where he was stand out from a mile away and got himself the pundits, and rightly so - since January he has been a passenger in the team, offering very little and looks a second or 2 slower - which is a shame. He has so much ability but he needs to graft a bit more, get his sharpness back because at the minute he looks like a poor championship midfielder when he has the ability to be one of the best, if not the best in the division! AND that leads me on to Hendrick, who had his 2/3 months of being our best player on Christmas, but lets not forget that upto November time, he was definitely the worst player in our starting 11 - luckily he seems to have found himself and now at least proving himself to be one of the best again, which is good to see after last season! Bryson has been the most consistent midfielder for us, but even he tends to drift in and out of games, and doesn't seem to have made the impact he did last season - not denying his quality at times which can drive us, but it's not been often this year where I've thought 'Bryson was MOTM' he was better earlier on in the season with Hughes and Coutts, saying that and more effective. Then we have 2 back up players for our entire midfield, which is ridiculous at this level, Michael Jacobs is another one who is extremely talented, and hope to see more of him and think he'll stake a claim for next season and Ben Davies who if I'm being honest perhaps isn't good enough for this division - he is a reliable stop gap and will plug a hole but don't think he adds much, if anything in all honesty. 

 

The strikers I must admit, are very much a worry. Jamie Ward is a top 6 championship player, he is in good form at the minute and don't think he is 'amazing' like some people do, I don't think he'll play in the premier league nor do I think he is good enough but he is good enough for us, and will score goals. The rest are athletic, but lack quality... first of all, the fish.. now I do like Sammon, but, I like him because of what he is, I know for a fact centre backs in this division won't want to play against him, a 6'2'' strong quick striker who enthuses power and lots of running, he is a nuisance but for all the work he does OFF the ball, his work ON the ball leads a lot to be desired! Tyson, is injury prone - I don't think he is a bad player, necessarily he is another powerful player like Sammon who when played upfront this season has scored goals, but like Sammon he isn't fantastic on the ball, and off the ball he seems to run into trouble. Theo is intelligent, he knows how to score but everything else is appalling in his game, his touch, his presence, his passing, his decision making but he gets the ball 6 yards out more than any other player I've seen - just for his basic footballing ability though, he isn't good enough! Connor Doyle, has done wonders for our reserves but everytime he gets a first team chance seems to **** himself, he may not be a bad player behind closed doors but in front of a crowd he breaks - we can't have a player like that. Callum Ball, will never be good enough for this level, he has done well for the reserves too and scored a few but quality wise seems to lack!  Finally Mason Bennett, a young kid - fantastic talent and could be our answer but he is still so young, so raw and seems to make the wrong decisions but i've got my fingers crossed for him.

 

Finally our management - Don't do things my way, and definitely could of done some things better! all in all, I respect the job he has done, and respect that he is not just planning for the short term and is actually looking 2/3 years ahead with every move he makes, which is what a lot of managers do especially in this division - he is the first manager we've had that has looked to the long term and perhaps sacrificed the here and now for the long term picture and I sincerely hope it works for him.  I am pro Clough, whilst I don't think he is a 'genius' and he will have his critics from players and fans a like he will work hard for the club, he will give his best for the club and on the whole believe he has a tight group of players that play for him, and each other... that's all you can do, this is why I don't get angry when he sticks with certain players. 

 

To sum up... Keepers are good, nothing special - Defence lacks in quality, lots of young players - Midfield lacks in depth, inconsistent yet talented bunch. - Strikers are athletes, Jamie Ward stand out but the rest lack quality and the management aren't outstanding, nor are they holding us back and at least planning for the future! 

 

Feel free to tell me where I've gone wrong, this is how I see things tonight - ask me tomorrow and i'll post something different! 

[Anag Ram]

I would argue we're perhaps a little bit above where we should be, or at the most where we should be.

 

I think if you look subjectively at our team, and I mean really look at our team taking complete bias away from it, there is absolutely no call for us 'under-achieving' - but at the same time it's not a nice thought either.

 

We've got 2 okay/good keepers - these keepers are absolutely fine, and one position we don't need to strengthen. They aren't amazing, and I think the England call up flattered Fielding but that being said, these could probably play in the premier league, happily but these aren't unbeatable. They both could play for a top 6 championship side, and have the quality - I think Legzdins is perhaps the more prominent keeper, but is more prone to making a mistake. 

 

The defence is average, perhaps below average.. Brayford is a top 6 player in this division, no-one will dispute that - or shouldn't but that for me is where anything close to the 'top 6' quality comes to an end. The other first team choices in Keogh, Buxton and Roberts, don't get me wrong - I like them, but I don't consider them 'top 6' quality. Keogh is a good championship centre back, worth what we paid for him and can play with the ball too which is a nice commodity but he isn't unbeatable, he doesn't possess the same dominance as a top centre half should, he is just as good as Shackell IMO which makes me think the summer transfer 'swap' was a bit of a waste of time. Roberts has been a good servant for us, last season especially I didn't think there were many left backs in the division as good as him, and the start of this season he was just as strong, recently he has been failing of the pace and more and more goals have been down to him losing his individual battles. Buxton, whilst under-rated by most for me, as I do think he is a okay championship centre back, and I do believe that - he does the basics very well, and more often than not will win his 'individual battles' and is a strong reliable player but he lacks the raw ability to be anything more, he is slow on his feet. Look past the first line of defence and you've got O'Connor who I don't think is good enough for this level, and the group of kids in Freeman, Gjokaj, MOB and Hoganson and these are players that have all shown promise when given the chance, but none of which I would be comfortable with playing week in week out at this level, yet. The last one is obviously Shaun Barker - I've done exactly the same injury as him, and all i've been told is how rough the recovery will be, and how it is very unlikely i'll be the same player which is why i'm not holding out for much hope, but, that being said he strikes me as key member of the dressing room, and intelligent footballing player who i've had the pleasure of meeting a few times, and every time i've spoke to him, he has impressed me so I have a lot of time for him, and think if he can anything back to what he was it'll be fantastic for the club! I don't mind our defence, but it's lacking, hopefully next year the younger players will have more of an impact and can cover injuries which will help no end, but in terms of having the quality to be playing at the right end of the table, only Brayford and Keogh show they could do it, and potentially Barker! 

 

Now on to the midfield, our midfield is as talented as any other in the division working together, and have so much ability and potential. BUT glaring weaknesses all the same. I find it hard to say who is top 6 quality and who isn't in our midfield because I think they've all shown themselves to have that quality in abundance but they've all shown inconsistency and gone missing for months on end. Coutts, he was such a revelation when he came into the team - was easily our best player for the opening part of the season with one problem, he wasn't scoring enough goals - and since November time he has become part of the fixture rather than a stand out player, he is decent - he is a talented player, but at the minute that drive had he isn't showing and past couple of months he has looked nothing more than an average championship player... brings me onto Hughes, I like most imagine was excited and a bit cautious when he was named as a first 11 player early on in the season, he dipped his feet in slowly but then November/December he had 2 months of being our best player, putting in some incredible performances for instance the one against Leeds, where he was stand out from a mile away and got himself the pundits, and rightly so - since January he has been a passenger in the team, offering very little and looks a second or 2 slower - which is a shame. He has so much ability but he needs to graft a bit more, get his sharpness back because at the minute he looks like a poor championship midfielder when he has the ability to be one of the best, if not the best in the division! AND that leads me on to Hendrick, who had his 2/3 months of being our best player on Christmas, but lets not forget that upto November time, he was definitely the worst player in our starting 11 - luckily he seems to have found himself and now at least proving himself to be one of the best again, which is good to see after last season! Bryson has been the most consistent midfielder for us, but even he tends to drift in and out of games, and doesn't seem to have made the impact he did last season - not denying his quality at times which can drive us, but it's not been often this year where I've thought 'Bryson was MOTM' he was better earlier on in the season with Hughes and Coutts, saying that and more effective. Then we have 2 back up players for our entire midfield, which is ridiculous at this level, Michael Jacobs is another one who is extremely talented, and hope to see more of him and think he'll stake a claim for next season and Ben Davies who if I'm being honest perhaps isn't good enough for this division - he is a reliable stop gap and will plug a hole but don't think he adds much, if anything in all honesty. 

 

The strikers I must admit, are very much a worry. Jamie Ward is a top 6 championship player, he is in good form at the minute and don't think he is 'amazing' like some people do, I don't think he'll play in the premier league nor do I think he is good enough but he is good enough for us, and will score goals. The rest are athletic, but lack quality... first of all, the fish.. now I do like Sammon, but, I like him because of what he is, I know for a fact centre backs in this division won't want to play against him, a 6'2'' strong quick striker who enthuses power and lots of running, he is a nuisance but for all the work he does OFF the ball, his work ON the ball leads a lot to be desired! Tyson, is injury prone - I don't think he is a bad player, necessarily he is another powerful player like Sammon who when played upfront this season has scored goals, but like Sammon he isn't fantastic on the ball, and off the ball he seems to run into trouble. Theo is intelligent, he knows how to score but everything else is appalling in his game, his touch, his presence, his passing, his decision making but he gets the ball 6 yards out more than any other player I've seen - just for his basic footballing ability though, he isn't good enough! Connor Doyle, has done wonders for our reserves but everytime he gets a first team chance seems to **** himself, he may not be a bad player behind closed doors but in front of a crowd he breaks - we can't have a player like that. Callum Ball, will never be good enough for this level, he has done well for the reserves too and scored a few but quality wise seems to lack!  Finally Mason Bennett, a young kid - fantastic talent and could be our answer but he is still so young, so raw and seems to make the wrong decisions but i've got my fingers crossed for him.

 

Finally our management - Don't do things my way, and definitely could of done some things better! all in all, I respect the job he has done, and respect that he is not just planning for the short term and is actually looking 2/3 years ahead with every move he makes, which is what a lot of managers do especially in this division - he is the first manager we've had that has looked to the long term and perhaps sacrificed the here and now for the long term picture and I sincerely hope it works for him.  I am pro Clough, whilst I don't think he is a 'genius' and he will have his critics from players and fans a like he will work hard for the club, he will give his best for the club and on the whole believe he has a tight group of players that play for him, and each other... that's all you can do, this is why I don't get angry when he sticks with certain players. 

 

To sum up... Keepers are good, nothing special - Defence lacks in quality, lots of young players - Midfield lacks in depth, inconsistent yet talented bunch. - Strikers are athletes, Jamie Ward stand out but the rest lack quality and the management aren't outstanding, nor are they holding us back and at least planning for the future! 

 

Feel free to tell me where I've gone wrong, this is how I see things tonight - ask me tomorrow and i'll post something different! 

I would agree with most of this. I think the problem in defence is a partner for Keogh. What we need is a dominant personality alongside him. He has all the attributes as a player but I feel our defence is not well marshalled. The midfield is a bit samey and lacks an anchor. I also feel our shooting from 20 yards, which is traditionally the role of the midfield, is atrocious. Upfront, I don't think Ward is top six. He's ok as an individual but doesn't always play well with his attacking partner. Sammon works hard but will never be a goalscorer. He simply isn't good enough in the air and lacks composure. That's very hard to change once you're in your mid twenties. I just can't see how we can progress with a forward who doesn't score. I wish him well and would never boo him because he's giving it his best shot (and we all know his best shot isn't very accurate!). We need two new forwards even after Martin. We must also hope that Bennett comes on as well as Hughes has this year. I think all the media attention has destroyed Will. He will be back. As for Clough, I think overall he has done a good job with limited resources. Sammon was a mistake. I so wish we had tried to get Chris Wood. Perhaps we did and wages were the issue. I still think the backroom staff aren't strong enough. Our defence needs better organisation and the shooting is weak. When did we last score a 'screamer'? I'd love to see a new coach brought in. That's me done.

[RamNut]

Wow that wall of text has inspired me....

Keepers: legzdins and frank are of similar standard - above average keepers who are beatable.

Ultimately we will have to choose between them, and if we really want to go up then we might to have to find someone else.

I would sell frank if we can get a good offer as he wont want to warm the bench, and his value will go down if he does.

Rbs. Brayford is excellent but is probably waiting to see what offers he gets. I think he might yet go this summer but i hope not.

If we could get kieren trippier then maybe i could get over it. I've not been impressed by freeman so far. JB would leave a huge hole - like when langan left. O'connor looked great when he first came, but has faded badly and should be released if poss.

Lb. roberts is not good enough and never has been. Yes he's played his best football this year but nevertheless its time to go.

Its a pity that we missed cresswell a couple of years back as he seems ok. cunningham might be signable if bristol city go down but there are precious few obviously good left backs around. Hoganson has done enough to get another contract.

Centre backs. Keogh has done well and might attract a bid from a leicester or some such outfit with money. It might be difficult to hold onto him if we don't look like becoming play off candidates. O'brien is good but like steve powell before him is crippled with injuries. Buxton is a ram: not a player who will take us any higher but a good squad player. Gjokai needs to be played to determine whether he has anything to offer. We probably do still need another centre back. One with pace would be good. Barker is not that player but might yet offer something if keogh goes.

Defensive mid . The biggest problem in centre mid is that we havent sorted out who does what. Hughes is played too deep and has lost confidence. He has begun to look confused about what is expected of him. Hendrick is best when charging forward. Not a natural holding player. Bryson could play the geraint williams role. He has started to look pissed off for some reason and it wouldn't surprise me if he left. Bailey really has been wasted but maybe he spends too long on the dancefloor. I'd keep him but it looks unlikely.

RM: Recently Coutts has looked less comfortable wide but is the only real option we have atm apart from jacobs. Davies always gives 100% but has never quite done enough.

Lm: Wards injury problems are becoming an issue and as we are forced to cope without him he will become increasingly expendable. He has never been quite as good since we rejected leicesters interest.

Strikers - none of them are good enough. Tyson is a crock. Robinson is too raw. Sammon is too agricultural. We need two new strikers if we want to advance. Bennett is getting physically stronger and may be ready to play a supporting role. Ball is an unknown quantity. Might be loaned out again.

There is still a lot to do to turn this squad into play off contenders.

[inglorious02]

There's not enough wheeling and dealing going on at the club. I think that's part of the problem. Look at Southampton. If I remember correctly, they sold Walcott for £11 Million and then a season or two later, Oxlade-Chamberlain for £8.5 million. They used the money to help pay off the debts, to keep bringing young players through and to invest wisely in new transfer acquisitions.

 

I keep hearing that Stoke are readying bids for John Brayford, or Man City want Hughes for £6 Million, but nothing actually ever happens. I think we need to sell some of our players to pay off some of our debts and fund new signings. I think it's a myth that we should desperately hold onto our highly rated players, we should be cashing in for as much as possible until we can get ourselves into a more stable financial position.

 

If we sell the best players we bring through the academy but we reinvest wisely and keep bringing talent through, will still be no worse than mid to lower end of the Championship table, but behind the scenes the debt will be falling, something that hasn't happened for a while now.

[Stive Pesley]

On the subject of Leicester's "way"

 

Their accounts last year showed a loss of £15m (doubled from the previous year's £7.5m)

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leicester-City-report-record-loss-15-2-million/story-15384845-detail/story.html#axzz2MfgPSc6J

 

According to their Official Site, they just released the accounts for this year and their losses have doubled AGAIN to just under £30m.

http://www.lcfc.com/news/article/010313-lcfc-announce-201112-financial-results-687151.aspx

 

The owners pumped in £36m last year alone (the previous year they invested £28m)  - it doesn't say what their debt is now as they have "restructured the balance sheet" but last year they were £46m in debt so simple maths tells you that this must have got considerably worse if you've made a loss of £30m!

 

They plan to convert a lot of this debt to equity in order to comply with FFP (not sure quite what this means but Ramblur may know?)

 

I know people perceive that we are at the opposite end of the spectrum, but really I don't think we are - we're in the sort of "sensible middle-ground"

 

Who can honestly say that they wouldn't be terrified at those levels of debt being accrued in the name of our club?

[curb]

The debt we've accrued isn't far off that, only ours will keep getting worse, if they make the Prem then they'll be OK (at least until they come down again).

If their owners have said they'll write the debts off then they're in a better position than us.

[Stive Pesley]

Our net debt in the accounts we just published was £33m - we've made a steady loss of ~£7m a year for the past 3 years

 

Leicester net debt is over £80m - more than double, plus their losses are doubling year on year.

 

Which would you rather have?

[Gary Teale]

Our net debt in the accounts we just published was £33m - we've made a steady loss of ~£7m a year for the past 3 years

Leicester net debt is over £80m - more than double, plus their losses are doubling year on year.

Which would you rather have?

A team in the play offs with a chance of promotion

[Stive Pesley]

I rest my case...

[ramblur]

On the subject of Leicester's "way"

 

Their accounts last year showed a loss of £15m (doubled from the previous year's £7.5m)

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leicester-City-report-record-loss-15-2-million/story-15384845-detail/story.html#axzz2MfgPSc6J

 

According to their Official Site, they just released the accounts for this year and their losses have doubled AGAIN to just under £30m.

http://www.lcfc.com/news/article/010313-lcfc-announce-201112-financial-results-687151.aspx

 

The owners pumped in £36m last year alone (the previous year they invested £28m)  - it doesn't say what their debt is now as they have "restructured the balance sheet" but last year they were £46m in debt so simple maths tells you that this must have got considerably worse if you've made a loss of £30m!

 

They plan to convert a lot of this debt to equity in order to comply with FFP (not sure quite what this means but Ramblur may know?)

 

I know people perceive that we are at the opposite end of the spectrum, but really I don't think we are - we're in the sort of "sensible middle-ground"

 

Who can honestly say that they wouldn't be terrified at those levels of debt being accrued in the name of our club?

 

 

It's the debt charges (interest) that affect FFP,so if they've cleared external debt they've reduced this charge.Looking at their figures it would seem that this year is make or break time for them.FFP hits next year with total allowable losses of £8m (£3m allowable deviation +£5m shareholder equity).The interesting thing about this is that they could always repay £5m of loan capital and reintroduce the cash as new equity to cover this element of allowable loss.Don't think there's anything for us to get excited about here,unless our owners have a remarkable change of tack.

 

With their current scale of losses,I find it hard to see how they could downsize to £8m so quickly (the disregarded fixed asset depreciation and net youth development won't help that much in the context of the size of these recent losses).

 

At least if they're 'cementing' equity in there's not as much risk to fans-I'm starting to wonder if there'll be an FFP rethink if a load of clubs go over the hilt.Safety in numbers.

[Stive Pesley]

Am I right in thinking that (for example) if a club's owner has loaned them £90m and doesn't really expect to get it back, then it's not much different (ignoring the accounting terms) to equity anyway? What would the practical difference be? If they sold the club they'd get the money (or part of it) back right?