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43 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Seasons in the top division
Millwall - 2
Derby - 65

Millwall have always been an upper 1st division / lower 2nd division side, whereas Derby are an upper 2nd division / lower 1st division side.
This is also evidenced by the all time average league table, ranking Derby 13th (average position of just worse than 20th), vs Millwall down at 47th (average league position just worse than 50th)

The only thing I would take issue with is this ‘average’ idea. Especially as many southern clubs had to wait for the expansion of the Football League in 1920, plus the fact that there was a Division Three (South) and a Division Three (North) up until 1958. 

When looking at a clubs’ standing I think it makes more sense to look at the number of seasons they have played at a certain level compared to others.

That is to say, Millwall have played more second tier seasons than most clubs. They are solid second tier club. If you get relegated to the second tier you’d expect to play Millwall, as well as Cardiff City, Portsmouth, Barnsley, Charlton Athletic - as other examples. 

42 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Seasons in the top division
Millwall - 2
Derby - 65

Millwall have always been an upper 1st division / lower 2nd division side, whereas Derby are an upper 2nd division / lower 1st division side.
This is also evidenced by the all time average league table, ranking Derby 13th (average position of just worse than 20th), vs Millwall down at 47th (average league position just worse than 50th)

I would never dispute the fact that Derby County are the far more successful club historically. 

I was just disputing the term ‘tin-pot’ for us… given our story, character and standing.

And I was merely pointing out that in my not too insignificant period of football support (ie four decades worth), Millwall and Derby County have played in the same division, more often than not. 
 

I have also seen Nottingham Forest (best mate is a Forest fan - his dad moved down here in the 1970s) and Sheffield Wednesday fans have this almost sneering attitude towards us too. Yet, both Forest and Wednesday have been out divisional peers even more than Derby County have in the last four decades. In fact, Wednesday and Forest have both been / currently reside in the third tier! 

As a club, Millwall can certainly look down on the likes of Chelsea and Crystal Palace in terms of foundation and historical credentials - but I doubt that’s going to cut much ice with anyone born after 1900 now! 

48 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

You lost me at that bit. 

 

BTW I meant as in 'brands' (ergh). Sadly, thanks to Sky, Tottenham Hotspur and West Ham United (spit) are some of the biggest clubs in world football. They generate huge revenues. Both could probably buy AC Milan as a feeder club nowadays. How sad is that? 

Besides, the point is... both them (and Arsenal and Chelsea) are a very quick tube ride away. We cannot compete with them for attracting fans. Millwall have to depend on the old working class communities still left in places like Bermondsey, Walworth, Rotherhithe, Deptford, Catford, Camberwell and New Cross, plus the exiled fans in Greater London areas like Eltham and Welling. 

That is why is was amazing to see Pride Park last night. I mean that. A city and region getting behind their club, whose players have their backs against the wall. It is a very special thing. There was a real sense of place and pride. 

51 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Good post. Probably was a 'typical Millwall' performance but I wouldn't mind that if it were my team winning. Thought Millwall were really good in the first half. Closed everything down, forced Derby into errors. Millwall do have to compete with a lot of clubs in London for support. Notice now that Millwall have 24 wins to Derby's 23 wins in past meetings. The Derby v Millwall fixture at Pride Park has become a bogey match recently (for Derby).

Yes, it is weird how we have become your bogey side in recent years. As I would have Derby County as one of the genuine big clubs at this level, but there isn't that 'derby' feel that we get when we play (and beat) Leeds and Stoke City. By that, I mean you can perhaps explain that more... Millwall getting themselves up to beat Leeds. 

My most vivid memories are bittersweet... our first ever top flight game at The Den was against Derby County. We won 1-0 and my granddad was very proud, as he considered Derby County a top and grand old side. But then there was that horrific, in every sense, play-off game in 1994!! 

9 minutes ago, Alty_Ram said:

 
You are obviously aware that your fans have a certain reputation but I have always thought of that (these days at least) as mostly pantomime baddie stuff. If other fans are going to think it anyway then what the hell, lets play up to that a bit. I remember having a wry smile when I first heard 'No one likes us we don't care' and the last year or so I think some of us can empathise with that. I also remember parking next to a car load of your lads at service station a few years back and concluded quite quickly that as with most things in life, take people as you find them. There was a bit of banter with the lads in our car of course but all good.

 

Yep. I would agree with that. There is still an active 'element', but no one is steaming into away fans at the turnstiles anymore. Mostly is is as you say, pantomime stuff. 

I will always argue that the Millwall fanbase is more Only Fools and Horses than Football Factory. Always. But unless you live in the area or frequent the local pubs, you are unlikely to come across that side of the fanbase. Instead you witness some obnoxious idiots at a train station or in the stands, or highlighted on the news... and that is what you think all Millwall fans are.

4 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Scott Malone is just a twit and was when he was here.  He seems just as highly regarded at other places he's been.  I seem to recall a fair few of your own supporters reminiscing that he was a **** *** and not that keen for him to come back when it was mooted. Derby stuck by Bennett through a number of personal issues - not just the infamous car journey- and gave him 3 contracts when he was absolute dog poo or terminally injured.  His behaviour since leaving here in regard to this has been, quite frankly, abhorrent.  

Oh yes, Malone gets called allsorts by us. 

Bennett seems like a troubled young man, but troubled young men can become wiser older men... see Troy Deeney. 

16 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

You lost me at that bit. 

Weirdly, I can remember well when Chelsea were a regular 2nd division team playing in an empty stadium with crumbling concrete, albeit they won a couple of cups early seventies.  You can thank Derby for Arsenal getting the chance of 100 years in the top division.  They had the deciding vote to invite them in from Division 2 where they regularly hung around mid table. 

I do not like Chelsea, but they are not this small club that came good through money many portray them to be. Their story is a bit unromantic, as they were founded to generate money for the landowner of Stamford Bridge. But since entering the Football League in 1906 they have always been a very well supported club. And if you look at their historical record, the 1980s were a blip, not the other way around. 

As for Arsenal, yep, very familiar with their story. Millwall and Arsenal were great rivals in the very early days, until they stabbed us in the back. It was Millwall, the best and biggest team in London at the time, who were invited to be the first southern club to join the Football League, not Arsenal. We turned them down to form our own competition - the Southern League. As at the time, Millwall thought it was better to play clubs like Arsenal, rather than travel to Darwen, Bootle etc. where cost of travelling would be high and crowds less interested. But unbeknown to us, Arsenal had gone behind our back. 

So it was no surprise when they engineered their way into the First Division without winning promotion. 

However, once they had moved to Islington, they were always destined be a big club. Meanwhile, Millwall naively stayed loyal to the Southern League far too long and lost ground on the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and West Ham... clubs that were far their inferior at the turn of the century (indeed, Chelsea didn't even exist then!). 

18 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Some of us have been watching Derby for a bit longer and so know what a great club we are!

 

True. Interestingly, I have always wondered what would have happened if Clough had rocked up at The Den in 1967. This was when the London docks were still open and Millwall were still able to draw upon a huge catchment area of local support. Most people in football have forgotten that Millwall were one of the best supported clubs in England when the London docks were thriving, with gates of over 40,000 for Third Division South football and 15-20,000 for reserve games! 

Back then, if Clough could have worked his magic like he did at Derby County, a provincial club, at a London club with a huge catchment area of working class support, then I am positive Millwall would be an established top flight club now. 

My other half is from Suffolk, I often muse with her Ipswich Town supporting family the same thing about Alf Ramsey. If he could have made Millwall, rather than a club not long out of non-league, champions of England, in an era that we had that huge catchment area of local support... 

Oh well.

2 minutes ago, TomBustler1884 said:

See, if you could encourage some of the class of your response to certain players (Malone, your number 2, Bennett) and the more unsavoury elements of your fanbase, you'd see a lot more respect and appreciation for your club!

In all honesty, Millwall didn't have to work too hard last night which is frustrating. I've seen you play dirtier or worse at Derby so fair enough!

Sadly, we have got some unsavoury elements in the fanbase, but at the risk of being an apologist, we are a club based in a deprived inner London ward. A watch of the classic, albeit depressing Nil By Mouth will inform you of why Millwall may have more issues than the likes of Reading, Wycombe and Bournemouth etc. However, I would always argue that overall, the Millwall fanbase is more Only Fools and Horses in character than Football Factory. Indeed, some of the best characters in it are real life Millwall fans - Uncle Albert, Syd, Mickey Pearce... and writer John Sullivan said all he did was take characters from the places he hung out in in SE London and put them on screen. I reckon Del was based on my dad! That is my experience of being a Millwall fan, drinking in pubs with characters like Del, Rodney, Granddad, Denzil etc etc... 

It is sad that the otherside of Millwall completely overshadows the normal, SE London side. Stories like this https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/millwall-fans-topping-the-table-for-charity-giving-on-last-day-of-cancer-deadline-day/ never make the national splash that a few idiots do. But it is a cross we have to bear.

As for the players... I do not know their individual circumstances, but they are young men and will react to a big crowd on their back. I don't know if they were getting social media messages from Derby fans in the build up, or outside the stadium or in the warm-up etc. I certainly did silly things in my 20s that I would not be proud of now, but which were reactions. Perhaps I am being too forgiving, I don't know. Tensions were always going to be high last night for Derby fans, I get that. 

Tame Millwall fan here. I have posted before, but not for a while. 

I enjoyed the game last night, mainly because you got it on, unlike Blackburn Rovers! Seriously though, as football fans, we all know the epicaricacy or 'schadenfreude' nature of the game's culture... and last night was a classic example. It was interesting and enjoyable to see a large crowd gather to get behind their city's only professional team so passionately, as their young and patched up side gallantly tries to overcome the huge obstacle of a 21 point deduction. I mean that by the way. I am not taking the Michael. This sense of spectacle was heightened by the fact that I was one of the 514 band of followers of perhaps the most unfashionable football club in England, managed by a disliked former Derby manager and containing some unpopular former 'Rams'. 

I think once the disappointment of losing what on paper looked like a winnable home match dissipates for you, you will be once again be filled with pride and no little hope - as Rooney and your players are doing an amazing job. I see some are already in that place. As others have pointed out, your young side came up against a very experienced and well-drilled defence last night. However, it must also be noted, that the reason we 'celebrated like we had won the league', is because we are going through our own injury crisis, and are also having to field a lot of young players, including a 15 year old! 

I also take issue with being called 'tin-pot'. Yes, we are a small club at Championship level, but I would not say we are tin-pot. I associate 'tin-pot' with clubs with no real character, history or romance. The sort of club whose fans sing the same old generic songs as everyone else - thankfully I have never heard a Millwall crowd sing a generic football chant like 'Everywhere We Go' or 'Easy' etc. etc. In fact, because of our strong sense of identity and character, I have only ever heard us sing very Millwall centric songs - NOLU, Let Em Come, Millwall to different tunes. 

Furthermore, Millwall have a rich and proud history - pioneers of professional football in London and the South no less. The only club able to challenge the dominance of the northern and midlands sides in the late Victorian era in football's oldest competition - the FA Cup. In fact, this is the reason Millwall are the only senior football club in English football to earn their nickname through footballing endeavour and achievement! Formerly the 'Dockers', Millwall were christened the 'Lions of the South' by the national press, after giving the likes of Aston Villa (the best club side of the Victorian era), Everton, Preston NE and yes, Derby County, bloody noses in the cup! 

Moreover, I was first taken to The Den by my granddad and uncle in 1985. By my maths, in the 37 seasons that have followed, Millwall and Derby County have played at the same level in 23 of them. That hardly suggests that going by endevours on the pitch, that Derby County are a vastly superior outfit. In fact that reflects rather poorly on Derby County, who represent a whole city and since Chesterfield have slipped out of the Football League, are the only representative for the whole of Derbyshire playing top level football. Whereas Millwall have to compete with some of the biggest clubs in world football in Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspur and West Ham United (spit) only a tube ride away, plus the likes of Crystal Palace and Charlton Athletic on our doorstep. I would argue that rather than being 'tin-pot', we are a very well-run club that gets the most out of its resources, allowing us to be a humble but proud second tier battler that no-one likes playing at The Den or in the cups. That may not be 'ambitious', but what's the alternative? Chase the dream like Derby County? 

That leads me on to Gary Rowett. Many Millwall fans are not enamoured with him either. You are correct, sometimes the football is painful. But needs must. Again, I take issue with it being 'typical' Millwall. From my time supporting the club Millwall have always been an aggressive and direct team yes, but in a positive way. That is to say, taking the game to the opposition, especially at The Den. However, Rowett is a dour pragmatic manager. That isn't Millwall, more like Charlton! But, times have changed, the Championship is full of big city clubs with regional level support like Derby County, Nottingham Forest, Sheffield United etc, all wanting to get into the promised land, as well as clubs like Bournemouth and Fulham, their pockets filled with the filthy lucre of parachute payments. Millwall currently need to keep their heads down and become more and more entrenched, like a tick in the Championship beast and hope we get a lucky season like Burnley or Huddersfield Town did, or even the jammiest of jammy clubs - Crystal Palace! 

Also, the club hierarchy are quite happy for a steady ship, as their main concern is this: https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/february/millwall-reveal-plans-for-stadium-redevelopment/

The opportunity to develop land around The Den, which would allow us income streams to compete seriously for promotion. If and when it gets given the green light (Lewisham Council has already approved the adjoining Renewel development), then I would imagine Huski will fully takeover the club and maybe our ambitions will increase. Until then, it is all aboard the keep it steady Rowett Express! 

Okay, if you bothered to read all that, I will sign off by genuinely wishing you well... because as football fans of a grand old club like Derby County, you certainly do not deserve what you have been through! Even if you do not win this battle, I am positive you will bounce back stronger for it! Good luck.