What would you rather...

[Asanovic]

Teams havent played like Swansea though, no promoted team had tried it until now. You're differentiating between passing and attacking.

Blackpool did pass it - everything went through Adam, and they were good to watch. I'm not saying they were as good as Swansea, I'm saying they played a similar way. Just like I'm not comparing Swansea with Barca, although they play a similar way.

[Bris Vegas]

Blackpool did pass it - everything went through Adam, and they were good to watch. I'm not saying they were as good as Swansea, I'm saying they played a similar way. Just like I'm not comparing Swansea with Barca, although they play a similar way.

Passing football and controlled possession football are completely different..

Chelsea play passing football, they're not that good to watch.. Blackpool played passing football, ie. Pass it rather than lump it, but they were very direct and never really controlled games.. They never had your usual 60% possession like Swansea and fellow Spanish clubs do.

There's no comparison to Blackpool and Swansea.. In fact, Swansea are unique in England (well UK).. There isn't one other club that plays controlled possession football like they do.. Even Arsenal are more direct..

[Obi1Kenobi0]

I think the perception of Stoke's play is different to the reality. Yes that can play direct and look to maximise set plays, but they can also play a bit as well through players like Etherington and Pennant. I watched Swansea v Villa back in Nov and and I was bored stiff. They lacked any sort of cutting edge which was sacrificed for possession. That said, they've done remarkably well, better than anyone could have predicted. The Arsenal game was a great spectacle and advert for their style of play. Of course they've played like that for several seasons, it seems well suited to the Prem.

The thing I question is whether they will get sussed out, be it this season or next. A bit like Blackpool did after their great start. In this sense based on Stoke being established and in Europe I would rather emulate them at present.

[Bris Vegas]

The thing about controlled football is it is great defensively. Having controlled football is simply keeping the ball, if you keep the ball the other team can't score.. It's no wonder that it works in the PL, Swansea are racking up 60% possession in a fair few of their games, it's stopping the opposition getting any sort of hold on the game and stopping them having the ability to create chances.. Especially at home, Swansea have a great defensive record.

Everyone wants to see teams carving others open with passing and moving but it takes years to get to that stage.. Swansea won't get sussed, they'll get better and better.. They have the base already to be comfortable on the ball, move it around the pitch, be patient etc.. The more time they spend in the PL the better quality of players they can bring in and the higher tempo they can play at..

Barcelona don't just keep the ball amazingly well, they do it at such a pace that they can literally open teams up at will.. It takes years and years and alot of time on the training pitch to get to a stage like that.

To those who claim Stoke can mix it up, I don't really see it.. I see that they have two out and out wingers in Etherington and Pennant who feed off the longball scraps and have the ability to whip and good ball in.. It works for them and they should be congratulated for it, but I don't see them as the typical model to emulate. Infact I can't wait until they play Valencia in the Europa League, they're going to get inhailated at the Mestalla and hopefully it will send out the message that football can win.

[Alph]

I still believe that if Nigel Clough had of continued to encourage a patient passing game in spite of bad results last season that we'd have a brighter future sooner.

So we got mocked on telly by pundits at Leeds for trying to play from the back. We won and the mocking soon stopped

So a few short sighted fans got angry with the system because results were getting poor again. Nigel himself dropped Bueno because "we aren't playing a way that suits him". How did our survival football work out? We still got beat. Yes we stayed up but I think we could of still stayed up trying to develop that system of playing. And we'd be stronger for it in the future.

Like Bris says it takes a long time to develop. Lots of patience with poor results. Games where goals are hard to come by. But it's a learning process.

Watford were onto it. Then abandoned it to try and get more immediate success (or rather a change of manager ended it.) Now they are no closer to long term success. Just holding their own

Barnsley are at it. They've had mixed results. Will a few bad results see them resort to a more traditional tried and tested way of getting short term joy?

We've undone all that hard work Nigel and Co did last summer. I want to see it back.

I just saw Garner say "nothing wrong with scraping wins".... Well it depends how often. Finding out we can't scrap it with Villa at PP wasn't fun.

I like to see us have more control over our fate.

[-JW-]

Have a think about this one, would you rather: beat forest on Feb 5th but have an poor end to the season and finish 16th, or Forest beat us 3-0 with ten men but we go on to finish third and win the play offs?

[LeedsCityRam]

From my own point of view, I see Swansea as the model to which Derby should be aspiring - and hopefully improving on, as we are a larger club.

Their style of play has been in place for a number of years now, with many of their players homegrown or having been with the club many years (Britton was there when they were fighting to stay in the league), with additional quality like Sinclair brought in to give the team a cutting edge. Not many of their players will have been on Prem teams radars last year but the "system" means the end result is greater than the individual parts. They were flirting with the playoffs for the past 3 years & now they've finally made the breakthrough, they seem very ready for the step up.

I reckon their style is very suited to the Prem & clearly is different from teams like Blackpool or West Brom under Mowbray, who were gung ho & entertaining but just couldnt defend. Swansea keep the ball to such a degree that other teams struggle to get meaningful possession against them & as a consequence, have a great defensive record. Its really not rocket science & it appalls me that teams in this country still embrace centrehalves smashing the ball mindlessly up the park

As for Stoke, yes they can play a bit although their main threat is direct football & set pieces. I could handle Derby playing like that initially but I think long term survival in Prem depends on being able to play (see Davies, William) - Stoke realised this after their first season & invested in some quality players (like Pennant, Etherington etc) to give them some variety.

[curb]

Have a think about this one, would you rather: beat forest on Feb 5th but have an poor end to the season and finish 16th, or Forest beat us 3-0 with ten men but we go on to finish third and win the play offs?

What do I have to forfeight if I want Forest to go down?

[Asanovic]

I wonder what Stoke fans think of their club's current situation.

[Bris Vegas]

Barnsley are at it. They've had mixed results. Will a few bad results see them resort to a more traditional tried and tested way of getting short term joy?

We've undone all that hard work Nigel and Co did last summer. I want to see it back.

I just saw Garner say "nothing wrong with scraping wins".... Well it depends how often. Finding out we can't scrap it with Villa at PP wasn't fun.

I like to see us have more control over our fate.

I 100% agree with you, I wish Clough stuck at it and he did have the chance to do so and the backing (time) from the board.

After Barnsley lost at away at WHU (through a set-piece) Keith Hill was asked if he would abandon his approach and he replied 'no way, we will continue to play patient possession football'

I think the problem Alpha is also peer pressure from fans and boardroom alike looking for the immediate success.. It takes a good 3 years to properly implement a style on a team, this including tactics, style, personnel, attitude etc.. Not many managers are given the 3 years to get it right..

Brendan Rodgers was sacked after 6 months in charge of Reading, though my mate told me he never wanted him sacked as although results were poor the performances were getting better and better and the youngsters looked better in possession as the months went on.. He walked into the perfect job (Swansea) that already had the foundations of his ideas from Martinez and Sousa so it was all set up for him..

The clubs that allow their manager time (as long as it has a vision - e.g. we correctly got rid of Paul Jewell as his style and vision is just terrible) then clubs can benefit.. If Brighton and Barnsley keep their managers in the next few years they'll be playoff contenders with young players playing controlled possession football winning all the plaudits whilst the likes of Leicester, Forest and Leeds will be struggling midtable or worse changing managers every season.

Nigel Clough will be given time no matter what, I also find it abit of a shame that he dropped the passing football in favour of the defensive survival type football even if it has wielded better results this season.. I'd rather us be 16th playing football like Barnsley than 8th playing football how we are now. But that's just my opinion.

[Asanovic]

I think we're giving our football this season a bit of a bad press - sure we've had to defend and do the ugly stuff at times, but we've also played some good stuff. It's not all been clinging on.

Not saying we're like Swansea, but not as bad as a few are making out.

[Bris Vegas]

I wonder what Stoke fans think of their club's current situation.

Tell me Asanovic, would you rather have another 3 years of PL football playing the style of football we did under Jim Smith when we finished 12th, 9th and 8th or would you rather have the 3 years Stoke have had, finishing 13th, 12th and 12th (?) playing hoofball and making an FA Cup final?

Who would you rather have in your team? Classy players like Eranio, Baiano and Asanovic or Crouch, Walters and Whelan.. Would you rather see someone like Stimac bring the ball out of defence, or someone like Huth lumping it long?

[CumbrianRam]

Have a think about this one, would you rather: beat forest on Feb 5th but have an poor end to the season and finish 16th, or Forest beat us 3-0 with ten men but we go on to finish third and win the play offs?

The latter 100% people worry about Forest WAY too much.

[Asanovic]

Tell me Asanovic, would you rather have another 3 years of PL football playing the style of football we did under Jim Smith when we finished 12th, 9th and 8th or would you rather have the 3 years Stoke have had, finishing 13th, 12th and 12th (?) playing hoofball and making an FA Cup final?

Who would you rather have in your team? Classy players like Eranio, Baiano and Asanovic or Crouch, Walters and Whelan.. Would you rather see someone like Stimac bring the ball out of defence, or someone like Huth lumping it long?

I'm not saying which style I prefer because I like both. I've never once stated a preference - I just said it's difficult to look at Stoke and not want a piece of that - doing well in the league and in Europe. But I love the way Swansea play.

I remember how I felt the year we went up under Billy playing a similar way to now, and I was bloody delighted, but if we could do that spraying it about, obviously I'd prefer it.

[Bris Vegas]

I'm not saying which style I prefer because I like both. I've never once stated a preference - I just said it's difficult to look at Stoke and not want a piece of that - doing well in the league and in Europe. But I love the way Swansea play.

I remember how I felt the year we went up under Billy playing a similar way to now, and I was bloody delighted, but if we could do that spraying it about, obviously I'd prefer it.

I'm not saying which style I prefer because I like both. I've never once stated a preference - I just said it's difficult to look at Stoke and not want a piece of that - doing well in the league and in Europe. But I love the way Swansea play.

I remember how I felt the year we went up under Billy playing a similar way to now, and I was bloody delighted, but if we could do that spraying it about, obviously I'd prefer it.

I'm confused, I thought the question was which one to prefer.. I don't think anyone here can say they aren't slightly envious of Stoke.. I sure am, FA cup final + European football.. They're lightyears away from us.. But would I want us to follow their footsteps? No way would I.. If we played their style of football I'd lose interest in DCFC altogether.. I'd rather us not be in Europe, not make an FA Cup final but have the ability to go away to established PL clubs and wack them 5-2 playing fantastic football..

We should definately try and emulate Swansea City, even if it sacrifices both time and a decent cup run..

Another way to look at this is to think of it this way.. Stoke will never ever have a calibre of player in the mould of Eranio, Stimac, Baiano etc.. It's these sort of players why Derby made so many friends and had many followers during the 90s.. It's the hope of having these sort of players in the future why certain people still stick around..

[Asanovic]

I'm confused, I thought the question was which one to prefer.. I don't think anyone here can say they aren't slightly envious of Stoke.. I sure am, FA cup final + European football.. They're lightyears away from us.. But would I want us to follow their footsteps? No way would I.. If we played their style of football I'd lose interest in DCFC altogether.. I'd rather us not be in Europe, not make an FA Cup final but have the ability to go away to established PL clubs and wack them 5-2 playing fantastic football..

We should definately try and emulate Swansea City, even if it sacrifices both time and a decent cup run..

Another way to look at this is to think of it this way.. Stoke will never ever have a calibre of player in the mould of Eranio, Stimac, Baiano etc.. It's these sort of players why Derby made so many friends and had many followers during the 90s.. It's the hope of having these sort of players in the future why certain people still stick around..

Personally I'd be pretty happy for us to follow Stoke's footsteps, but as I've said I'm as big a fan of counter attacking, organised football as much as a short passing game - I don't have a real preference, and can see the value and excitement in both.

I'd definitely have Derby in Europe at any cost, because in my lifetime it's highly unlikely it will ever happen.

[RotherhamRam]

Lets be realistic here Swansea are a bit of a special case. How many premiership/championship teams would love to be able to have a pass percentage like them. I think even Man Utd are not in the top 8 in Europe.

Yes it is nice to watch, yes it would be nice to see Derby play like this. But lets look at their defeats..

Lost 4-0 to Man City, Lost 3-1 to Shrewsbury, Lost 1-0 Arsenal, Lost 4-1 Chelsea, lost 3-1 Norwich, Lost 1-0 Man Utd Lost 4-2 Blackburn, Lost 1-0 Everton.

In the list only Man City has a better passing rate then them. They have won 5 drawn 5 at home and won 1 and drawn 3 away from home. Maybe this is because teams are playing at Swansea like we do away from home and don't tend to attack them yet when they are at home these teams do and get better results. In the games they have lost they have scored 5 goals but conceeded 21 goals. It is a good job they have a great home record yielding 20pts out of their 26pts.

Although I would like us to pass as fluently as them however there is also the need to be able to do the donkey work. I have to say I also feel that the football we have been playing is getting a bad press, be it they have lost faith in Derby, anti-clough/board/both or just like to moan. I have seen some nice football at Pride Park in games at time.

At the moment I would take what we have as the squad as heart and passion for the club. Never say die attitude who will fiight for each other. They attempt to play nice football and do link up and yes at times it breaks down. I don't feel we play hoofball and the defence/mifield and attack link well together.

[BOB BIGGS]

Personally I'd be pretty happy for us to follow Stoke's footsteps, but as I've said I'm as big a fan of counter attacking, organised football as much as a short passing game - I don't have a real preference, and can see the value and excitement in both.

I'd definitely have Derby in Europe at any cost, because in my lifetime it's highly unlikely it will ever happen.

I've always admired the way Wenger manages his teams and enjoyed their flowing passing, particularly several years ago when they were brilliant. I watched the game on Sky on Sunday and was very impressed with Swansea. I can't make my mind up whether they will continue to be successful but I hope so. It would be a shame if other teams find a way to stop them but it won't be for the lack of trying. Arsenal are still a few players short of a very good team but it won't be too long before they are back to the top 4. Wenger knows what he's doing but has buckled under pressure a few times this year.

So, great football from both teams. That's not what you get at Derby for the most part. I've mentioned the "ghosts" of Hector, McFarland Nish, George etc before. Bris mentions Eranio, Baiano and Stimac from the later era. I think we'd all love to see those kinds of players at PP. I think NC would too but are we really going to be able to attract players like that? Where would we find the money to bring in quality of that sort? I think we're going to have grow most of it ourselves via the Academy - not easy.

It's groundhog day. We start to change the style of play. We lose a few - Clough out follows. We then have suggestions that Colin W, Big Sam [should be available again by then], blah, blah and blah should come in to get some results! Who has the loudest shout? The purists [with whom I am happy to be associated] will say we need time to develop the "total football" style. Those who require the win at all costs will say it's all about 3 points. Who'd be a manager.. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[RotherhamRam]

I've always admired the way Wenger manages his teams and enjoyed their flowing passing, particularly several years ago when they were brilliant. I watched the game on Sky on Sunday and was very impressed with Swansea. I can't make my mind up whether they will continue to be successful but I hope so. It would be a shame if other teams find a way to stop them but it won't be for the lack of trying. Arsenal are still a few players short of a very good team but it won't be too long before they are back to the top 4. Wenger knows what he's doing but has buckled under pressure a few times this year.

So, great football from both teams. That's not what you get at Derby for the most part. I've mentioned the "ghosts" of Hector, McFarland Nish, George etc before. Bris mentions Eranio, Baiano and Stimac from the later era. I think we'd all love to see those kinds of players at PP. I think NC would too but are we really going to be able to attract players like that? Where would we find the money to bring in quality of that sort? I think we're going to have grow most of it ourselves via the Academy - not easy.

It's groundhog day. We start to change the style of play. We lose a few - Clough out follows. We then have suggestions that Colin W, Big Sam [should be available again by then], blah, blah and blah should come in to get some results! Who has the loudest shout? The purists [with whom I am happy to be associated] will say we need time to develop the "total football" style. Those who require the win at all costs will say it's all about 3 points. Who'd be a manager.. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I agree, in a sense I can see why people are moaning as they wanted things to change immediately. Football clubs over recent years have not run clubs as a business and have been running up debts you only have to look at how manyclubs have gone into administration over the last 5-10yrs. Prior to then it was rare to hear of a club in the top two leagues to be in administration.

This board (although I think they are too tight) are trying to run it has a business and the way everything is moving at football this appears to be the route all clubs are moving towards. The academy IS working, you only have to look at what is coming through already.

Before anyone says it has taken three seasons, remember our academy weren't producing that means the ones at the high end of the academy age group were not good enough. They have had to recruit new players into the academy and develop them. The fact that this is now producing is for me a success and saved the clubs at least a couple of million already in transfers (never mind the wages as prob would be on more money).

Our football may not please everyone, however getting results should. It breeds confidence, increases the reputation of the club, enspires potential academy players to come to the club as they know they have a chance of playing first team football if they proved they are good enough. It is right to say if they are good enough they are old enough, it helps with their education and if you do have an injury crisis they get some game time.

For the ones who moan about Clough, think about this if we had the likes of Sam Alladyce, Paul Jewell, Billy Davisetc would we have seen Hendrick, OB, Bennett, Ball playing this season. The answer for me would be no as they are not kown for developing youngsters as they tend to dip into the transfer market first.

I will agree with Bris on one thing here in respect of Barnsley the manager there is trying to develop the youth system as well, although I don't agree with their policies there. (I know about the current situation as I coach junior football in Barnsley and have seen what the academy has done to a load of 7/8 yr olds).

[nfb]

This is an interesting debate, and in a way i cant help thinking that its a broader debate about styles of football, whats seen as the old 'English' game, versus the Spanish game, with a touch of the Dutch game on the side(which is arguably a mix of the two) my wonder is whether NC can produce such an ethic, working as he seems to,with mainly UK players ? but i am hopeful that what seems to be happening at the academy will bear fruit and maybe just maybe my initial scepticism of NC was misguided,and he may yet bring quality football to Derby, and if he does.... having done it the way i have just outlined, he will become as great a legend in Derby as his dad 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' /> and i hope to see it 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

Flowing, passing,goal scoring football........