Tamworthram Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 36 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said: No iv been discussing why financial system is broken and designed to keep us the average jo poor and how bitcoin offers people a chance to break/ escape that system.. and how and why it does that If u think im convincing then uv answered the above questions lol Well, not exactly. You've constantly preached about the virtues of Bitcoin v the traditional monetary system (which, I'm not sure is actually "designed" to keep the average Jo poor). Which is far enough. It's something you seem to feel quite strongly about. I really don't have a problem with that (hence the smiley face). The only thing I do have a problem with is saying "iv" instead of "I've", "u" instead of "you" and "uv" instead of "you've". 😀😀 (two smiley faces in case you think I'm being remotely serious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 40 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: the virtues of Bitcoin v the traditional monetary system (which, I'm not sure is actually "designed" to keep the average Jo poor). Correct - traditional monetary systems aren't "designed" to keep the average joe poor, but they are exploited by those in power to make sure that happens. BTC on the other hand is specifically "designed" to (in theory) not let that happen. Brilliant if it works, but even in the past 12 months we've seen the powerful finance corporations like Black Rock move in and start to hoover up as much BTC as they possibly can - hence my concern that this was not part of Satoshis model. He designed it to be a decentralized secure currency that was supposed to be resistant to manipulation in the way that traditional currencies are not. Mass institutionalised investors getting involved, essentially because they are chasing the same long term profits that the average joe is, could become very dangerous as it ties up the fortunes of BTC with the wider financial market and therefore will not be quite so immune to manipulation as the BTC model envisaged. For example they could exit all their bitcoin - causing the price to drop, then buy it all up again at a much cheaper price. Rinse and repeat Not saying that will happen but if I were a regular holder of BTC that's probably the thing I'd be most concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 1 hour ago, Tamworthram said: Well, not exactly. You've constantly preached about the virtues of Bitcoin v the traditional monetary system (which, I'm not sure is actually "designed" to keep the average Jo poor). Which is far enough. It's something you seem to feel quite strongly about. I really don't have a problem with that (hence the smiley face). The only thing I do have a problem with is saying "iv" instead of "I've", "u" instead of "you" and "uv" instead of "you've". 😀😀 (two smiley faces in case you think I'm being remotely serious). Im sure you’ll get over it 😉 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said: Correct - traditional monetary systems aren't "designed" to keep the average joe poor, but they are exploited by those in power to make sure that happens. BTC on the other hand is specifically "designed" to (in theory) not let that happen. Brilliant if it works, but even in the past 12 months we've seen the powerful finance corporations like Black Rock move in and start to hoover up as much BTC as they possibly can - hence my concern that this was not part of Satoshis model. He designed it to be a decentralized secure currency that was supposed to be resistant to manipulation in the way that traditional currencies are not. Mass institutionalised investors getting involved, essentially because they are chasing the same long term profits that the average joe is, could become very dangerous as it ties up the fortunes of BTC with the wider financial market and therefore will not be quite so immune to manipulation as the BTC model envisaged. For example they could exit all their bitcoin - causing the price to drop, then buy it all up again at a much cheaper price. Rinse and repeat Not saying that will happen but if I were a regular holder of BTC that's probably the thing I'd be most concerned about. Agree re institutional investment / manipulation being a concern… on the flip side it brings more money, more validity and more publicity to the space so its a double edged sword in my opinion re keeping us poor. Genuine question have you ever stopped and wondered why we have inflation and are told to expect everything to go up in price over time and not down. i mean technology is forever improving and we’re able to do things way more efficiently than 10 , 20 ,30 years ago so say in retail and v leymans example..instead of having lines of cashiers on min wage we now have lines of automated scanning machines with 1 guy over seeing 20 checkouts.. one lot of min wage but ur shopping is more expensive than it was 2,3,4,5 years ago similarly this kinda thing would be mirrored across the whole production line from Field to shelf… more machines , less people faster , cheaper, more efficient so if were able to produce things more efficiently why do they keep going up in price? because deflation would cause a 2008 style financial crash becuase the whole system is built on ……….. prize for the missing word lol Edited June 29 by NottsRam77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 1 hour ago, NottsRam77 said: becuase the whole system is built on ……….. prize for the missing word lol Is it "greed"? Inflation is a lot more complicated than just costs vs price though. Supply and demand for example - but I get your point. We may stray into politics, but under capitalism if someone can increase their profit margin then they will. That's the rules. Something costing less to make/provide will very rarely result in the price going down, if demand is high. Although BTC is designed to be deflationery it remains to be seen how the economics of supply and demand will work out if BTC ends up being the new transactional currency. Given that we've never had a modern society run on a deflationary finite currency before, it could get interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said: Is it "greed"? Inflation is a lot more complicated than just costs vs price though. Supply and demand for example - but I get your point. We may stray into politics, but under capitalism if someone can increase their profit margin then they will. That's the rules. Something costing less to make/provide will very rarely result in the price going down, if demand is high. Although BTC is designed to be deflationery it remains to be seen how the economics of supply and demand will work out if BTC ends up being the new transactional currency. Given that we've never had a modern society run on a deflationary finite currency before, it could get interesting! Tbf … it could quite easily be greed lol The word is debt the great race to the bottom, as long as your not last your winning … kinda .. what a way to live lol Edited June 29 by NottsRam77 Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 (edited) On 04/07/2024 at 14:58, cstand said: Just scooped a little up at 56k … just cos difficulty level set to drop by 5-6% might give the miners a little head room and stabilise the price while miners work out what fair value is for their btc all part of the process Edited July 6 by NottsRam77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 Difficulty level dropped by 5% set to drop by Another whopping 11% on the 20th july bottom may … (caveat outside factors permitting) be in 🤷 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 I see the German government have been selling off a huge amount of their BTC holdings, which seems to be adding to the downward trajectory of the price As with the Feds returning a huge chunk to coinbase the other week, it feels like unethical to have governments (or any other whale) able to cause short term price manipulations by mass selling. Are there any regulations in place to stop this? With the Mt Gox returns starting too, it feels like the price volatility is not going to be over for quite a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 5 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: I see the German government have been selling off a huge amount of their BTC holdings, which seems to be adding to the downward trajectory of the price As with the Feds returning a huge chunk to coinbase the other week, it feels like unethical to have governments (or any other whale) able to cause short term price manipulations by mass selling. Are there any regulations in place to stop this? With the Mt Gox returns starting too, it feels like the price volatility is not going to be over for quite a while No bitcoin is its own thing no one person or entity controls it .. so no regulation anyone can buy and own it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 (edited) 3 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: No bitcoin is its own thing no one person or entity controls it .. so no regulation anyone can buy and own it Peter Schiff already spotted this a few days ago. https://m.economictimes.com/markets/expert-view/how-hedge-funds-are-affecting-bitcoin-price/amp_articleshow/111184041.cms Edited July 6 by cstand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 On 29/06/2024 at 15:47, Stive Pesley said: Correct - traditional monetary systems aren't "designed" to keep the average joe poor, but they are exploited by those in power to make sure that happens. BTC on the other hand is specifically "designed" to (in theory) not let that happen. Brilliant if it works, but even in the past 12 months we've seen the powerful finance corporations like Black Rock move in and start to hoover up as much BTC as they possibly can - hence my concern that this was not part of Satoshis model. He designed it to be a decentralized secure currency that was supposed to be resistant to manipulation in the way that traditional currencies are not. Mass institutionalised investors getting involved, essentially because they are chasing the same long term profits that the average joe is, could become very dangerous as it ties up the fortunes of BTC with the wider financial market and therefore will not be quite so immune to manipulation as the BTC model envisaged. For example they could exit all their bitcoin - causing the price to drop, then buy it all up again at a much cheaper price. Rinse and repeat Not saying that will happen but if I were a regular holder of BTC that's probably the thing I'd be most concerned about. It’s gambling and on something that has no substance .. you could say the same about currency but it isn’t the same. There’s no central bank that desires it to have value. Anyone, who owns enough of anything from Oranges to Bitcoin can be exposed or can manipulate. And you can bet block chain or not someone will find a way round the tech. Alcohol is a drug .. it’s negatives are well known. Bit coin is white powder sold to you by a dodgy bloke in a bar. You might get high but you might die .. you don’t know which and nor does anyone else. NottsRam77 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 49 minutes ago, cstand said: Peter Schiff already spotted this a few days ago. https://m.economictimes.com/markets/expert-view/how-hedge-funds-are-affecting-bitcoin-price/amp_articleshow/111184041.cms Peter schiff is famous for his anti bitcoin agenda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 12 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said: Peter schiff is famous for his anti bitcoin agenda Peter Schiff is famous for predicting the 2008 financial crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 5 hours ago, NottsRam77 said: No bitcoin is its own thing no one person or entity controls it .. so no regulation anyone can buy and own it The second statement is true The first statement...well, also true but that's not always a good thing is it? The two examples I gave of the US and German governments choosing to sell in huge quantities have both negatively impacted the short term price. Seems a flaw in the plan non? And I'm not being "anti-bitcoin" in saying so, I think the idea of a currency that no one controls is a good thing, just saying that we're already seeing governments experimenting with how they can manipulate the price To be fair - who wouldn't? If I had millions of $ of BTC and I could sell it today at $60k knowing that it would artificially force the price down for a littel but then I would. Then in a few days, spend the money I made buying it all back up again at $50k, knowing that the price was then going to rise as a result (because as you've said many times - it's deflationary and designed to increase in value). Almost the dictionary definition of a safe bet I dunno - happy to have someone explain if I'm getting this fundamentally wrong? I have had a pint 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 13 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: The second statement is true The first statement...well, also true but that's not always a good thing is it? The two examples I gave of the US and German governments choosing to sell in huge quantities have both negatively impacted the short term price. Seems a flaw in the plan non? And I'm not being "anti-bitcoin" in saying so, I think the idea of a currency that no one controls is a good thing, just saying that we're already seeing governments experimenting with how they can manipulate the price To be fair - who wouldn't? If I had millions of $ of BTC and I could sell it today at $60k knowing that it would artificially force the price down for a littel but then I would. Then in a few days, spend the money I made buying it all back up again at $50k, knowing that the price was then going to rise as a result (because as you've said many times - it's deflationary and designed to increase in value). Almost the dictionary definition of a safe bet I dunno - happy to have someone explain if I'm getting this fundamentally wrong? I have had a pint 😂 Agree theres a lot of uncharted territory ahead of us, governments owning btc, etfs , pension pots, theres going to be lots of peaks and troughs along the way as big whales dump and move the price.. but btcs trajectory has never been a smooth, straight line up. Theres always been peaks and troughs maybe they'll be more pronounced or sudden? but i mean, I don't by any investment .. be in gold, stocks and shares, bitcoin for the short term… im not a trader. When i buy i buy to invest for the long term so what it does on the shorter time frames doesn’t concern me at all .. assuming i believe in the basic fundamentals of the asset im buying etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 (edited) 14 hours ago, cstand said: Peter Schiff is famous for predicting the 2008 financial crash. Yes and surprisingly to many he shares the notion like every bitcoiner that the monetary system we exist in is broken and failing people across the world The only difference between peter and hardened bitcoiner like myself is that he believes gold is the answer to the fiat problem we have. 100% at one with him on everything, just not his answer to the problem although totally behind him that the problem started when we moved off the gold standard Edited July 7 by NottsRam77 cstand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NottsRam77 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 😂😂😂😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBB Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 I've got an idea/thought/project which involves £1 a day. The cost of a paper or coffee or whatever. The type of money we "throw away" on a daily basis with nothing if anything to show for it, bit doesn't impact on my finances at all. Sonic going to stop that £1 being thrown away and am going to do something with £1 every day I contemplated £1 a day in a jar as physical cash, scratch card a day, then I thought about shares or crypto. Before I carry on I want to say that I can afford £1 to never see it again as I already pretty much do that anyway. I'm contemplating using some sort of platform or app to basically buy £1 of crypto or shares every day to see what happens after a year. Talk me in or out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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