Are we now living in the parallel universe where we never got Jim Smith?

[Duracell]

A Derby side stuck in the second division, spending money on 'proven' players who should be enough to get us promoted, only to be disappointed at a play-off final at Wembley. Stuck in the second tier, with a bloated squad, financed by a wealthy local fan.

I could be describing Derby either in the early 1990s or the late 2010s, and it would still be accurate. The only significant difference is what happened next - The Bald Eagle and Steve Mac. Simply having a passionate, wealthy owner is not enough. You need visionaries in the club to make it happen.

There is a parallel universe where we didn't go with the uninspiring appointment of Jim Smith, and carried on. I wonder if, aside from missing out on the pioneering days of the Premier League, the end result would have been what we have now. Finances out of control, an aging squad, struggling to stay up in the second tier.

Is Mel Morris any different to Lionel Pickering? This is a sincere question as I'm too young to recall this era. 

[Tyler Durden]

42 minutes ago, Duracell said:

A Derby side stuck in the second division, spending money on 'proven' players who should be enough to get us promoted, only to be disappointed at a play-off final at Wembley. Stuck in the second tier, with a bloated squad, financed by a wealthy local fan.

I could be describing Derby either in the early 1990s or the late 2010s, and it would still be accurate. The only significant difference is what happened next - The Bald Eagle and Steve Mac. Simply having a passionate, wealthy owner is not enough. You need visionaries in the club to make it happen.

There is a parallel universe where we didn't go with the uninspiring appointment of Jim Smith, and carried on. I wonder if, aside from missing out on the pioneering days of the Premier League, the end result would have been what we have now. Finances out of control, an aging squad, struggling to stay up in the second tier.

Is Mel Morris any different to Lionel Pickering? This is a sincere question as I'm too young to recall this era. 

Pickering didn't have to sell our ground so no. 

I know it's easy for time to smooth over some of the more pertinent facts but I can't recall Pickering doing anything as remotely as divisive as Morris has and there's lots to choose from. 

Both invested their own personal fortunes in the club, Pickering was handicapped by other clubs knowing we were loaded so when we went enquiring for players they doubled the asking price so we were done over that way. With Morris we just seemed to happy to randomly spunk money up the wall without any thought or consideration or rationale, Johnson sticks out as a prime example. 

[Ramarena]

Is this the universe where we gave Steve Bruce his first managerial job creating a worm hole to a fourth spacial dimension, smashing string theory and leading us to the bottom six of the champ with Wayne rooney in charge?

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, Duracell said:

A Derby side stuck in the second division, spending money on 'proven' players who should be enough to get us promoted, only to be disappointed at a play-off final at Wembley. Stuck in the second tier, with a bloated squad, financed by a wealthy local fan.

I could be describing Derby either in the early 1990s or the late 2010s, and it would still be accurate. The only significant difference is what happened next - The Bald Eagle and Steve Mac. Simply having a passionate, wealthy owner is not enough. You need visionaries in the club to make it happen.

There is a parallel universe where we didn't go with the uninspiring appointment of Jim Smith, and carried on. I wonder if, aside from missing out on the pioneering days of the Premier League, the end result would have been what we have now. Finances out of control, an aging squad, struggling to stay up in the second tier.

Is Mel Morris any different to Lionel Pickering? This is a sincere question as I'm too young to recall this era. 

Interesting comparison. Whilst the early 90s were frustrating, it was less chaotic than recent years. We only had 2 managers pre-Jim Smith (Cox at the end of a long stint at the club & Roy McFarland) compared with the 9 managerial spells we've had since Clough left in 2013 (including Wassall & Rooney). 

Definite similarity with the transfer strategy though. We were massive spenders between 92-94 even by the standards of the division above, with a focus on bright young things in the same division. Whilst all talented & all ultimately bound for the top division, the criticism was often that the team didnt 'gel' & we generally looked disjointed. Opposition teams saw us as a prized scalp & often outworked us...again some symmetry with recent times.

To an extent we were lucky in 1995 though. There wasnt really a vision as such, the previous strategy had clearly failed & most of the expensive signings had left by the time Smith arrived. He was largely unwelcomed by the fans & under serious pressure come October. We then clicked post-Stimac & tore up the division.

Totally agree with the point I think you're making. We need a plan to return to competing for top 6 spots, even if that is a 2-3 year project. That does not require heavy investment but I think it does necessitate a) a director of football to oversee the project, have a long term strategic viewpoint and be responsible for signings/managerial appointments & b) an owner that is prepared to fund sensible acquisitions. No more 'statements of intent' in the market but focus on building a squad via canny signings & youth team step ups...much like Jim Smith managed in 95/96.

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, Duracell said:

A Derby side stuck in the second division, spending money on 'proven' players who should be enough to get us promoted, only to be disappointed at a play-off final at Wembley. Stuck in the second tier, with a bloated squad, financed by a wealthy local fan.

I could be describing Derby either in the early 1990s or the late 2010s, and it would still be accurate. The only significant difference is what happened next - The Bald Eagle and Steve Mac. Simply having a passionate, wealthy owner is not enough. You need visionaries in the club to make it happen.

There is a parallel universe where we didn't go with the uninspiring appointment of Jim Smith, and carried on. I wonder if, aside from missing out on the pioneering days of the Premier League, the end result would have been what we have now. Finances out of control, an aging squad, struggling to stay up in the second tier.

Is Mel Morris any different to Lionel Pickering? This is a sincere question as I'm too young to recall this era. 

I would day finances were out of control but not now. Transfers in the Clement and Lampard seasons cost a lot with very little in return.

Hard to say we have an aging squad when we only have 6 players over the age of 30, 1 won't play for us again and another is on loan. We also only own 11(?) players in our first team who are older than 21.

[Marriot Ram99]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Interesting comparison. Whilst the early 90s were frustrating, it was less chaotic than recent years. We only had 2 managers pre-Jim Smith (Cox at the end of a long stint at the club & Roy McFarland) compared with the 9 managerial spells we've had since Clough left in 2013 (including Wassall & Rooney). 

Definite similarity with the transfer strategy though. We were massive spenders between 92-94 even by the standards of the division above, with a focus on bright young things in the same division. Whilst all talented & all ultimately bound for the top division, the criticism was often that the team didnt 'gel' & we generally looked disjointed. Opposition teams saw us as a prized scalp & often outworked us...again some symmetry with recent times.

To an extent we were lucky in 1995 though. There wasnt really a vision as such, the previous strategy had clearly failed & most of the expensive signings had left by the time Smith arrived. He was largely unwelcomed by the fans & under serious pressure come October. We then clicked post-Stimac & tore up the division.

Totally agree with the point I think you're making. We need a plan to return to competing for top 6 spots, even if that is a 2-3 year project. That does not require heavy investment but I think it does necessitate a) a director of football to oversee the project, have a long term strategic viewpoint and be responsible for signings/managerial appointments & b) an owner that is prepared to fund sensible acquisitions. No more 'statements of intent' in the market but focus on building a squad via canny signings & youth team step ups...much like Jim Smith managed in 95/96.

For me competing for Playoffs is not enough. We were bang average last season and achieved that so it's hardly an achievement look at some of the dross in and around the top 6 this season. 

We need to aim for promotion, we haven't achieved that in 14 years so Playoffs to me is big ducking thrill,  we have had plenty of playoff seasons that have ended up with nothing. The aim has to be promotion in 2 years, next season competing at around the top 6 season after automatics. Being in the Playoffs is not enough as we saw under Rowett and our last few attempts, one thing being good enough to get in them by scraping in but we were nowhere near a team that deserved or was ready for promotion in any year since 2015.

We need about 6 signings of quality our team is that poo at the minute compared to what it needs to be if we are to have aspirations of leaving this league at the right end. 

Simply aiming for Playoffs is how you get to the verge of relegation, any one of about 15 teams aims for Playoffs each year, you aim for top half have a bad season and you are in league 1. We need real investment in the side but without new owners I can see us being bottom half until we eventually go down to league 1. Then we could be a Bradford or Notts County without good leadership which we haven't had since Mel Morris arrived. Hopefully everything is sorted off the pitch or else I fear we could become a nothing club stuck in league 1 never mind competing for a Premier league place. No matter how you dress it up our off the pitch running has been woeful. Not helped by the absolute chancer Lampard signing dross like Malone, Jozefoon and spending big on Waghorn and Marriott who we will get no return on and leave us financially in poor straits.

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, Marriott Ram99 said:

For me competing for Playoffs is not enough. We were bang average last season and achieved that so it's hardly an achievement look at some of the dross in and around the top 6 this season. 

We need to aim for promotion, we haven't achieved that in 14 years so Playoffs to me is big ducking thrill,  we have had plenty of playoff seasons that have ended up with nothing. The aim has to be promotion in 2 years, next season competing at around the top 6 season after automatics. Being in the Playoffs is not enough as we saw under Rowett ane our last few attempts, one thing being good enough to get in them by scraping in but we were nowhere near a team that deserved or was ready for promotion in any year since 2015.

We need about 6 signings of quality our team is that poo at the minute compared to what it needs to be if we are to have aspirations of leaving this league at the right end. 

Simply aiming for Playoffs is how you get to the verge of relegation, any one of about 15 teams aims for Playoffs each year, you aim for top half have a bad season and you are in league 1. We need real investment in the side but without new owners I can see us being bottom half until we eventually go down to league 1. Then we could be a Bradford or Nottts County without good leadership which we haven't had since Mel Morris arrived.

Don't disagree. I meant aiming at the top end of the table to be in the promotion hunt rather than playoffs specifically but finishing 4th/5th with a chance to go up is a damn sight better than what we have currently.

Just regarding investment (and I've seen you make the point elsewhere), its not loads of cash that we need. That heavy spending has arguably been the problem 2015-19. Its continuity of management/ownership & steady improvement of the team by reinforcing a style/team ethic & adding more suited (not necessarily better) players as they become available. Thats why we were talking about early 90s as we've done the big spender bit before & failed then too.

[Marriot Ram99]

11 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Don't disagree. I meant aiming at the top end of the table to be in the promotion hunt rather than playoffs specifically but finishing 4th/5th with a chance to go up is a damn sight better than what we have currently.

Just regarding investment (and I've seen you make the point elsewhere), its not loads of cash that we need. That heavy spending has arguably been the problem 2015-19. Its continuity of management/ownership & steady improvement of the team by reinforcing a style/team ethic & adding more suited (not necessarily better) players as they become available. Thats why we were talking about early 90s as we've done the big spender bit before & failed then too.

I feel like having the money to buy quality players definitely helps. Yes, you can have money and squander it on bad signings but it's harder when you have less to spend. Seems to me due to the finances of relegated teams on parachute payments, for us to go up after so many years of being in the championship its either a Brentford approach or a Aston Villa approach and gamble on going up. Think the best bet is somewhere in between but without much money at all we will have to sell youngsters so will be looking at midtable forever unless we have a freak season like Blackpool or Huddersfield where they scraped play offs then one them.

If you look at the teams who usually get promoted they tend to have the bigger budgets to afford quality players especially quality attacking players, we will need to do miracles to go up on a small budget.

Also don't think the youth we have are good enough to get us at the top end of this league without 3 or 4 Bielik quality players around them. Alot of the young players we have are flattering to decieve and I am doubtful we can over rely on young players like we have this season and be successful.