Why?

[Sith Happens]

10 hours ago, reveldevil said:

Wasn't it that he was convicted of a handful of offences, given his sentence, and after conviction was accused of many more?

If so, can they not charge him with the offences not originally forming his original sentence and conviction?

 

Yeah thats what i thought too.

[Sith Happens]

10 hours ago, GboroRam said:

But you're comparing two completely different things. Both were found guilty by a jury of peers. Your issue with Evans was about an unjust verdict, from the jury. This guy was found guilty by a jury, nobody has an issue with the verdict, but the sentence, from the judge, seems unreasonably light. There's been plenty of cases where judges don't treat violence or assault on women as seriously as maybe they would treat other crimes. I'm not saying I can't see issues with trial by jury - the story in private eye of a juror who voted guilty because the police said he was guilty, and they wouldn't make up something like that being a good reason to have concerns - but the idea of an approved group in charge of verdicts has deep concerns for me. Until a better system is put forward the Evanses will have to take their chance with the jury and rely on the appeal process for those miscarriages of justice. 

There will always be miscarriages of justice, both ways. I think allowing the defendant to remain anonymous has to be considered. How can a high profile case like Evans thats plastered all over the press not have some influence against potential jurors?

 

[Stive Pesley]

11 hours ago, PistoldPete2 said:

Sorry Stive this isnt vigilante talk.

Not from you - that wasn't aimed at you. You didn't say anything other than  voice your opinion that he should have served a much much longer sentence. A sentiment I totally agree with.

I was talking about others in the thread who had earlier called for him to be hanged, castrated or mutilated with a redhot poker (which I get weren't serious threats but borne of frustration at the weakness of the justice served) - but mainly at the comment about not being surprised if he is now attacked outside of prison. I wouldn't be surprised either given the vitriol I've seen, but people can't take the law into their own hands like that

 

[PistoldPete2]

11 hours ago, GboroRam said:

But you're comparing two completely different things. Both were found guilty by a jury of peers. Your issue with Evans was about an unjust verdict, from the jury. This guy was found guilty by a jury, nobody has an issue with the verdict, but the sentence, from the judge, seems unreasonably light. There's been plenty of cases where judges don't treat violence or assault on women as seriously as maybe they would treat other crimes. I'm not saying I can't see issues with trial by jury - the story in private eye of a juror who voted guilty because the police said he was guilty, and they wouldn't make up something like that being a good reason to have concerns - but the idea of an approved group in charge of verdicts has deep concerns for me. Until a better system is put forward the Evanses will have to take their chance with the jury and rely on the appeal process for those miscarriages of justice. 

No the original evans controversy was that having served a sentence of 2.5 years he should not be allowed to play football again. Then I piped up I didn't think he was guilty anyway, as was later proven. But the problems were not just with the jury... The prosecution, CPS, the judiciary were all at fault. The guy was eventually found not guilty on the basis of evidence that was withheld or not provided from the original trial. 

There have been other similar cases recently.. A derby guy served four years  for rape, only to be released cos his sister in law found facebook messages on his phone that showed he wasn't guilty. Why didn't the police investigate that instead of relying on a relative to do it many years later? The Met is investigating about 35 other cases after rape trials collapsed at the last minute again in similar circumstances.

it isn't an entirely separate issue from that of sentencing. These were all one -offs, one persons word against another. Given the general incompetence or bias of the police, I think the problems is the binary nature of our system. Guilty or not guilty, rapist or not. For worboys his sentence should have been far greater having committed around 100 offences. Not only was each offence more serious than the single offence  that evans and co were accused of , not only is the fact that there were 100 of them more serious than a single offence, but also the strength of the conviction , ( or else 100 women were lying, which obviously they werent) should all lead to a much longer sentence for him. 

[Sith Happens]

35 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Not from you - that wasn't aimed at you. You didn't say anything other than  voice your opinion that he should have served a much much longer sentence. A sentiment I totally agree with.

I was talking about others in the thread who had earlier called for him to be hanged, castrated or mutilated with a redhot poker (which I get weren't serious threats but borne of frustration at the weakness of the justice served) - but mainly at the comment about not being surprised if he is now attacked outside of prison. I wouldn't be surprised either given the vitriol I've seen, but people can't take the law into their own hands like that

 

I agree people shouldnt take the law into their own hands. I do believe that for serious sex offenders medical or surgical castration should be considered, if there is a chance of reducing sexual desire then why not?

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

14 hours ago, Phoenix said:

My experience of 'Mental Health Workers' is that by and large they are:

a.Do-gooders

b.Wet behind the ears

c.Compulsive coffee drinkers

d. Not fit for purpose.

Those on this forum who are aware ot the Bradgate Unit at Glenfield will know what I mean.

I can't believe that rehabilitators are any different.

 

I'm not having that. A good many of the people in the profession of mental health are there because they genuinely want to help. It's not always their personal fault if they are hamstrung by a rubbish system. Lumping them all in to your categories is just silly.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

One thing I will say is that it appears you are speaking from experience (apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick here, no offense intended), in which case I would hope that the experience is not representative of mental health professionals on the whole. 

[Stive Pesley]

Here is a decent article by the Secret Barrister that tries to explain the answer to the "Why?" that this thread asks

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/man-raped-hundreds-women-released-prison-9-years/

Short version - the law is an oaf, but bottom line is that we have to trust the Parole Board are convinced that he won't offend again (although their reasons are private and we won't get to know them)

@Paul71 regarding your castration question, it's much more complex than just "sexual desire". In actual fact chemical castration is an option in the UK - but it's voluntary. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Worboys has asked for this - hence the Parole Board's belief that he will not re-offend

A good article here that includes an interview with the Professor who designed the voluntary chemical castration program in the UK

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wiring-the-mind/201410/should-we-be-castrating-sex-offenders

 

[RiddingsRam]

15 hours ago, King Kevin said:

Because the country is full of jumped up self serving ***** that see good in everyone and thing the can rehabilitate the worst offenders .Hang him and hang a do gooder either side of him.

Do they see good in everyone though ? Or do they think it looks good on them if there seen to being good in people ? Highly doubt anyone could see could in this vermin.

[GboroRam]

54 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I agree people shouldnt take the law into their own hands. I do believe that for serious sex offenders medical or surgical castration should be considered, if there is a chance of reducing sexual desire then why not?

Unfortunately miscarriages of justice happen. In your scenario, Evans could have lost his plums.

[Phoenix]

51 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

One thing I will say is that it appears you are speaking from experience (apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick here, no offense intended), in which case I would hope that the experience is not representative of mental health professionals on the whole. 

I presume that you are pesponding to my comment. If so, yes, from bitter personal experience. My stepson suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and was a patient there a few times. He used to go missing, sometimes for days on end, resulting in police serches and the like.

One night, my wife phoned to see if he was ok and was told yes he's having dinner. In actual fact, he'd hung a bag of clothes out of a window, nipped out, collected the bag and gone AWOL. They didn't even know.

The last time, he went walk-abouts and put himself in front of a car on the A50. He's spent the last 7 years like a cabbage, with 24/7 care, unable to speak or feed himself, and is totally paralyzed.

If you think this is a one-off case read this, and tell me what you think. Incidentally, while my stepson was in there, a girl committed suicide by hanging herself from a tree in the grounds. Action? they cut the tree down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23895883

PS When my wife heard that the coroner was doing an investigation into the suicides, she phoned and asked about those cases of unsuccessful attempts. She wa told 'that's not within our remit' so God knows how many of those cases there are. I could go on, but that's sufficient, I think.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

7 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

I presume that you are pesponding to my comment. If so, yes, from bitter personal experience. My stepson suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and was a patient there a few times. He used to go missing, sometimes for days on end, resulting in police serches and the like.

One night, my wife phoned to see if he was ok and was told yes he's having dinner. In actual fact, he'd hung a bag of clothes out of a window, nipped out, collected the bag and gone AWOL. They didn't even know.

The last time, he went walk-abouts and put himself in front of a car on the A50. He's spent the last 7 years like a cabbage, with 24/7 care, unable to speak or feed himself, and is totally paralyzed.

If you think this is a one-off case read this, and tell me what you think. Incidentally, while my stepson was in there, a girl committed suicide by hanging herself from a tree in the grounds. Action? they cut the tree down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23895883

PS When my wife heard that the coroner was doing an investigation into the suicides, she phoned and asked about those cases of unsuccessful attempts. She wa told 'that's not within our remit' so God knows how many of those cases there are. I could go on, but that's sufficient, I think.

As hollow as it may ring I am sorry your step son and family are going through such an ordeal, I genuinely am.

It sounds like that facility had a shocking record, would it still be fair to say the efforts of decent professionals that genuinely care are undermined by people who display a lack of competence or willingness to do their jobs properly?

[Stive Pesley]

35 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

As hollow as it may ring I am sorry your step son and family are going through such an ordeal, I genuinely am.

It sounds like that facility had a shocking record, would it still be fair to say the efforts of decent professionals that genuinely care are undermined by people who display a lack of competence or willingness to do their jobs properly?

Equally - the terrible circumstances you describe should not be used to tar all mental health professionals with the same brush. Whatever the reasons for that particular unit's failings in the articles from 2013 there are thousands more mental health staff working their arses off to help those in need.

[Phoenix]

44 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

As hollow as it may ring I am sorry your step son and family are going through such an ordeal, I genuinely am.

It sounds like that facility had a shocking record, would it still be fair to say the efforts of decent professionals that genuinely care are undermined by people who display a lack of competence or willingness to do their jobs properly?

Yes, absolutely. The 'outreach' team (I believe that's what it's called) was brilliant and were very supportive to both My stepson and my wife, and yes, they work their arses off because they're under-staffed and under-resourced.

Whether there are more cases these days, or whether it used to be swept under the carpet, who knows? The psychiatric doctor in this case has a firm belief that if you are likely to be susceptable to paranoid schizophrenia, it can be accelerated in a developing brain by cannabis.

[Phoenix]

15 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Equally - the terrible circumstances you describe should not be used to tar all mental health professionals with the same brush. Whatever the reasons for that particular unit's failings in the articles from 2013 there are thousands more mental health staff working their arses off to help those in need.

Quite so, but I did start my original comment with 'In my experience'. I'm sure there are mental hospitals at the other end of the scale. It must be an almost impossible job, as it must be difficult to diagnose. My stepson had the ability to tell anyone exactly what they would like to hear.

[RamNut]

2 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Here is a decent article by the Secret Barrister that tries to explain the answer to the "Why?" that this thread asks

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/man-raped-hundreds-women-released-prison-9-years/

 

I think that explains it and corresponds with my assumption.

he was only convicted of one rape in which case the tariff is lower than for multiple rapes.

it sounds as though they couldn't get sufficient evidence for multiple rapes.

maybe he will end up facing new charges?

[Stive Pesley]

30 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

Quite so, but I did start my original comment with 'In my experience'. I'm sure there are mental hospitals at the other end of the scale. It must be an almost impossible job, as it must be difficult to diagnose. My stepson had the ability to tell anyone exactly what they would like to hear.

Understood - I'm probably sensitive as my wife works in mental health, specifically in young people with psychosis. She's in the community rather than an in-patient unit, and it's incredibly stressful for her as these are people who haven't been sectioned but could break-down at any moment, so her job is to try and keep them on the healthy path. She says exactly as you do that some of the patients have the ability to tell her anything and it's impossible to get things right 100%. She's done it for 15 years and luckily not had to deal with a single suicide on her case load. She'd say that's luck. The pressure has finally got to her though and she leaves this week to work in education doing student wellbeing. It won't be anything like as challenging, but there is only so long you can sustain yourself. When it starts to affect your home life it's time to move on.

 

[RamNut]

If a parole board are to be convinced that an offender has shown remorse, then that offender should be obliged to declare any other offences.

if they don't then they aren't truly remorseful.

if they are released and are then found to have been dishonest in not declaring other offences, then they should return return to prison to continue their sentance.

 

[Phoenix]

19 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Understood - I'm probably sensitive as my wife works in mental health, specifically in young people with psychosis. She's in the community rather than an in-patient unit, and it's incredibly stressful for her as these are people who haven't been sectioned but could break-down at any moment, so her job is to try and keep them on the healthy path. She says exactly as you do that some of the patients have the ability to tell her anything and it's impossible to get things right 100%. She's done it for 15 years and luckily not had to deal with a single suicide on her case load. She'd say that's luck. The pressure has finally got to her though and she leaves this week to work in education doing student wellbeing. It won't be anything like as challenging, but there is only so long you can sustain yourself. When it starts to affect your home life it's time to move on.

 

Good for her. I couldn't do it.

Good luck to your wife on her new venture and you're right, when it starts to affect your home life it's time to move on.

[EssendonRam]

19 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I personally don't care whether he can be rehabilitated or not.

8 years is not enough.

I'm not one of those habitual L&O people who endlessly call for longer and longer penalties but you have concede that 8 years (or 10 including the period he was on remand) is simply manifestly inadequate for 19 rape offences.

That equates to just over 5 months per rape (6 if you include remand).

Even if not all 19 offences were not rapes, it is still manifestly inadequate. That;s without considering the 100 or so women who've come forward since.

Why on earth didn't the Crown appeal?