Zak Brunt - Academy kid

[ramblur]

1 hour ago, cheron85 said:

Man City are a Category 1 academy aren't they? If he spent 2 years there that would be £80k

Why would they waive all but £7k of the fee? Seems a bit odd...

Depends how old he was when at Man City. Under a certain age the fixed compensation/annum is only £3k,whatever the category.

[RamNut]

He was 10-12 at man city.

i even posted the video of him joining them.

[RamNut]

46 minutes ago, ramblur said:

Do you have a link to the full rules,as rule 270 looks pretty important to me.I noticed you gave one clause the heavy bold treatment,apart from 'unless rule 270 applies'.

270 An Academy player in age group Under 16 who has not received an offer to enter into a scholarship Agreement by 1 March shall thereafter be at liberty to seek registration as an Academy player at the Academy of any other Club (or club) and, in such circumstances (save where the Academy player concerned remains in Full Time Education beyond his Under 16 year), the Club that holds his registration shall not be entitled to receive compensation from any Club (or club) that subsequently registers the Academy player for its training and development of that Academy player in accordance with Rule 325. 

 

In order words if the club didn't want the player and weren't going to make him an offer to stay he could join another academy without compensation being due.

if the club do want the player, but the player wants to leave then the club can ask for the silly money for the subsequent release of the players registration.

 

[Interestedparty]

48 minutes ago, RamNut said:

He was 10-12 at man city.

i even posted the video of him joining them.

At that age even at cat 1 it's only 3k per year compensation

Its only after that age the compensation starts to get big money

[Comrade 86]

11 hours ago, RamNut said:

It doesn't matter what the reason is.

Err, yes it does. If I wanted to renege on a contract with you you'd probably want to know why before blithely saying, 'oh yes, that's absolutely fine!'

Lol. You crack me up.

i said derby were contractually correct but that the contract was legally flawed.

How is it 'legally flawed' if it's a binding contract. If it was 'legally flawed' it couldn't constitute a binding contract, could it? Are you some sort of contractual lawyer? If so, maybe give Mel a call and share your in-depth knowledge with him. After all, what would the academy know about academy contracts. I'm sure they'd find your advice invaluable. Pfft.

 

[Interestedparty]

At age 16 if a player had been at an academy since under 9s and it's been a cat one academy all of that time then there are three pretty simple choices

1) The club don't think the player will make it and don't offer him a scholarship etc and he is entitled to look elsewhere and there will be zero compensation to be paid

2) The club think the player may make the grade and offer the player a scholarship. The player accepts and continues his progress and development with the club

3) The player is offered a scholarship but doesn't want to stay at the club.  At this stage the compensation will be at 200k approx. The player can look for another club willing to pay that or he can play grassroots or he can accept his scholarship offer.

 

i can tell you that 200k is nowhere near enough compensation at that age for any club to be given for the very best 16 year olds and its low enough for some owners of clubs to consider disbanding their academies when they realise how little they may get for a potential superstar player

So what you describe as silly money only applies if the kid isn't the superstar his dad might think he is and no club is interested in paying it

Just like it appears that no club is even willing to pay 120k now

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Interestedparty]

Most academy parents think their son is better than he is. I see it every day of the week.

Thats a fact. And if he isn't doing as well as they hoped most will blame everything around them.

eg coach is crap, he is being played in wrong position, team mates don't pass to him enough, training is better elsewhere etc

Im guessing this lad ain't getting MOM every week now, his dad can't understand how it's possible and wants to blame it on the club and now for about the fourth or fifth time wants to go somewhere else to continue the circus and feel like he is the number one at the new club.

Fair enough find a club who thinks he is worth the investment.

He can't find one so now rather than eating humble pie and staying at Derby he's gone to the press to claim the club are finishing the lads career

As though a 15 year old can even have a career to be finished

The player is the victim here of the dads elevated view of his sons ability and has probably been brainwashed by the dad that everyone is working against them when in fact the lad is just struggling right now a bit compared to in the past and just needs to work hard and get through it

Hes basically been told by Derby you can stay here and develop until a club thinks you are worth the signing fee

As long as Derby want him to stay then he can't argue. If they ever don't renew his contract he can walk away for nothing and start giving his new club headaches I imagine. 

Thats my take on all of this.

[Interestedparty]

http://www.thefa.com/~/media/C2FB1444624F4367AA477A72D94B50BF.ashx

Here are the full EPPP rules

[Pearl Ram]

Hope I’m not being harsh here but going on their previous, it looks to me, the father sees his lad as a ticket to the easy life and he’s got the hump because it’s not happening as quick as he’d like.

[RamNut]

8 hours ago, Interestedparty said:

 

When you are ready to leave school they either have to offer you a scholarship contract or release you FOC. The player only has another year to either be offered a deal or not. His career is not finished. 

The debate isn't over players that the academy are happy to release. if they want to release them they won't be demanding 120k or whatever else, in compensation. This is about players that the club want to keep.

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When you simply decide you arent happy and want to go somewhere else (as it appears this parent does ongoing) then the clubs are entitled to be compensated and protected accordingly. If not the whole essence of investing millions into an academy is blown away and clubs would be forced to close their academies as there is no protection for them

Therefore the issue is the economic interests of football clubs v the freedom of individuals. Bosman revisited.

If 99.9 % of players fail to make the grade as you having stated - which is indeed a figure i have seen mentioned elsewhere then each player has a 1000-1 chance of making it. who would put £120k on a horse at 1000-1? Or even 100-1. I did suggest that if an academy player moved and subsequently joined another academy and went on to sign a pro-contract then a tribunal should decide the compensation due. 

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Indeed the biggest argument I see is that even the £40k per year for Cat Ones is not enough compensation for losing a player that the academy has helped develop and that they hope could be worth millions to their club in the future

What does normally happen is a compromise is reached or some kind of negotiation when a club seriously wants to take a player with a high tariff from a club who doesnt want to release him

if 99.9% don't make it, then it is unreasonable to value every academy player equally at these high values from 40k for a 13 year old to 80k for a 14 year old etc etc.

It would be very interesting to observe the howls of protest on here if a 13 year old from say Brightons academy  wanted to leave Brighton and join Derby due the players family moving to Derby. say Derby were happy to take him but brighton demanded £40k in compensation.  Oh what a furore there would be. Especially if Forest were keen to take him too and Brighton said the fee to them would be £25k (because they are cat 2). Lets say neither club were willing to pay the fee and brighton refused to negotiate. The 13 year old then cannot join either academy and is trapped by having spent one year at brighton. Do people really think that is ok??

that is indeed what is happening. E.g. The 13 year old from stoke city who can't sign for anyone until stoke get £40k.

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I suspect any clubs looking at this player are severely worried by his past lack of commitment to any club and so why would they risk £120k on him now.

As others have said if he was worth £120k then clubs would pay it.

If this kid was flying right now and looking on track to be a pro player why would the parent and player want to move in the first place?

 If he was no good then Derby wouldn't be making him an offer and holding out for compensation if he moves. 

And if his chances of success are so slim then why would anyone be expected to pay £120k.

 

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

In order words if the club didn't want the player and weren't going to make him an offer to stay he could join another academy without compensation being due.

are you reading this story as the club haven't offered him a contract? and simultaneously have refused to release for free?

I've read it as the player is still part of the club's plans, still being coached, but wants out.

[RamNut]

39 minutes ago, Interestedparty said:

At that age even at cat 1 it's only 3k per year compensation

Its only after that age the compensation starts to get big money

Which would explain the £7k fee. 

[RamNut]

2 minutes ago, Moist One said:

are you reading this story as the club haven't offered him a contract? and simultaneously have refused to release for free?

I've read it as the player is still part of the club's plans, still being coached, but wants out.

No, i read it as you do.

[Interestedparty]

8 minutes ago, RamNut said:

The debate isn't over players that the academy are happy to release. if they want to release them they won't be demanding 120k or whatever else, in compensation. This is about players that the club want to keep.

Therefore the issue is the economic interests of football clubs v the freedom of individuals. Bosman revisited.

If 99.9 % of players fail to make the grade as you having stated - which is indeed a figure i have seen mentioned elsewhere then each player has a 1000-1 chance of making it. who would put £120k on a horse at 1000-1? Or even 100-1. I did suggest that if an academy players moved and subsequently joined another academy and went on to sign a pro-contract then a tribunal should devide the compensation due. 

if 99.9% don't make it, then it is unreasonable to value every academy player equally at these high values from 40k for a 13 year old to 80k for a 14 year old etc etc.

It would be very interesting to observe the howls of protest on here if a 13 year old from say Brightons academy  wanted to leave Brighton and join Derby due the players family moving to Derby. say Derby were happy to take him but brighton demanded £40k in compensation.  Oh what a furore there would be. Especially if Forest were keen to take him too and Brighton said the fee to them would be £25k (because they are cat 2). Lets say neither club were willing to pay the fee and brighton refused to negotiate. The 13 year old then cannot join either academy and is trapped by having spent one year at brighton. Do people really think that is ok??

that is indeed what is happening. E.g. The 13 year old from stoke city who can't sign for anyone until stoke get £40k.

 If he was no good then Derby wouldn't be making him an offer and holding out for compensation if he moves. 

And if his chances of success are so slim then why would anyone be expected to pay £120k.

 

The set compensation removes the need for tribunals. Why make it even more complicated?

Seriously though can the dad not just wait and see if the lad gets a pro contract offer before trying to disrupt his son again. If he does then see if someone else rates him high enough to pay for him to join them instead. If not stay at Derby until someone wants to buy him.

As it is he's at a cat one academy in the middle of studying GCSEs etc and the club are happy with him as a player and want him to stay 

So my advice to the dad is stop rocking the boat and give the lad a chance to just train and play football without creating a circus around him

[RamNut]

35 minutes ago, 86 points said:

Err, yes it does. If I wanted to renege on a contract with you you'd probably want to know why before blithely saying, 'oh yes, that's absolutely fine!'

How is it 'legally flawed' if it's a binding contract. If it was 'legally flawed' it couldn't constitute a binding contract, could it? Are you some sort of contractual lawyer? If so, maybe give Mel a call and share your in-depth knowledge with him. After all, what would the academy know about academy contracts. I'm sure they'd find your advice invaluable. Pfft.

 

Why don't you just read the earlier posts explaining all of this, which is a view shared by the sports lawyer quoted in the newspaper article.

[Interestedparty]

The dad of the Stoke player you mention brought all that on the kid as well

Glory seeker etc

 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Why don't you just read the earlier posts explaining all of this, which is a view shared by  A  sports lawyer quoted in the newspaper article.

FIFY

[Interestedparty]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-lodge-young-player-2033504

This talks about compensation from the point of views of clubs like Derby and even bigger clubs

Basically its not high enough to deter poaching of the best young players 

The problem for Zak is either he isn't  as good as the players in that article or else his dad has scared off any other club from getting involved in training him

I imagine its a bit of both tbh

 

[RamNut]

2 minutes ago, Interestedparty said:

The set compensation removes the need for tribunals. Why make it even more complicated?

If the player never got offered a pro-contract then clearly he wasn't worth big compensation.

Quote

he's at a cat one academy in the middle of studying GCSEs etc and the club are happy with him as a player and want him to stay 

So my advice to the dad is stop rocking the boat and give the lad a chance to just train and play football without creating a circus around him

Again, my first preference was to resolve whatever is the issue and for the player to stay with Derby. But we don't know the specific details, it may be that the kid is the one who wants to leave. So if we can't resolve it - let him go. Then the issue is whether its a yd7 or a yd10 under current rules.

what say does a family have in that? 

[RamNut]

2 minutes ago, 86 points said:

It's all Derby's fault chaps. We've put a 'legally flawed' yet weirdly binding contract in place. What an 'orrible bunch we are. What we should be doing is bowing to pressure from a jumped up squirt and his grasping father so that they can move on to their 7th academy in as many years leaving the kids who actually want to play for Derby and our fans and chairman to foot the bill for this pair's 'mistaken' belief they were actually joining a futsal team. Silly, silly Derby.

Grow up. Its about the academy system not dcfc.