Vydra and Nugent

[Ninos]

3 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I think they both knew that they would be second choice initially...you can't blame GR forward going for the most prolific striker....

Both can play a part though....vydra definitely alongside Martin and Nugent as a high energy substitute or simply to be utilised when the opposition suits....it shouldn't be written in stone that any of the strikers start...surely that's the point of having a squad.

 

All true but wouldn't you say that high level sub is a bit unfair to Nuge.  Nugent has been terrific and prolific in minutes played since he came but he has yet to get a real shot at #9. 

[Ninos]

3 hours ago, 86 points said:

I don't think it's necessarily either or - any combo of Martin, Vydra and Nuge (assuming any / all are in half decent form) can create a fair bit of havoc. I've long suggested that Matej would come good and I really hope he goes on to show the kind of form he did a couple of years back.

It'll be really interesting to see whether GR can get these lads firing. If he does, the play-offs could be a formality as I'd wager our defence will be tough with the new signings and George and Hudds sat in front of the back four. As for yesterday, folk were, IMO, unnecessarily down about the performance.

There were some pretty positive signs there amidst an admittedly mediocre run out. Unlike last year, for instance, it was us finishing the game strongly rather than sitting deeper and deeper, panicking and inviting trouble. Not a particularly popular line of thought, I admit, but for me, Keogh was the best player on the pitch. 

I'd agree with all of this and add that we seem a lot more rigid and determined defensively. This side won't have the weak underbelly of a mcclaren team. But all the more reason that whatever the solution up top Rowett get it figured relatively quickly. If he does that, on the back of Hudds Thorne Davies keogh and wisdom we will be a top team.

[rammieib]

What did Nugent specifically do in the ten mins he was on? Am I missing something? I saw him kick thin air on a great opportunity.

The only decent link up play was Vydra to Martin (until the latter decided rugby was the game) in the final third.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Ninos said:

All true but wouldn't you say that high level sub is a bit unfair to Nuge.  Nugent has been terrific and prolific in minutes played since he came but he has yet to get a real shot at #9. 

Agree with this but I think Nuge is by far and away the most adaptable of the three of them and does not necessarily have to play as a 9. Might there even be a way to incorporate all three on occasions? I'm not as savvy as some on here regarding systems and perhaps playing them together might be a bit gung ho for GR, but it's an intriguing possibility.

[Cool As Custard]

The key thing is not the formation we play but the combination of players that are used in each formation

In a 4-3-3 with Martin at CF it's critical we have 2 wide men & at least 1 CM who comfortable running forward with ball at their feet. This allows shorter passes to be played into him allowing the wardrobe to do what he does best & bring others into play in the final 3rd. As we know he does not thrive on long balls up to him to knock down/on to others.

Unfortunately on Friday night he was surrounded by Butterfield (can't run with the ball, prefers to sit & only passes sideways), Johnson (can't run with the ball, the touch & precision passing of a dinosaur) Weimann (can't run with the ball at his feet, poor control & either passes safe backwards or gives it away) & Russell (can run with the ball but decision making shocking & gives the ball away 7 times out of 10). It was never going to work & my only defence for Rowett is that he didn't have Martin at the end of last season to work this out.

If he wants to play this way then he either needs a more mobile, stronger CF to deal with longer balls up to him to win flick ons to put Johnson, Weimann & Russell into goal scoring positions where their finishing strengths can be brought into play - someone like Clayton Donaldson, or Cameron Jerome would be better for this role. Alternatively if it is going to be Martin he needs to be surrounded by players who are more comfortable running with & better at passing the ball in the final 3rd - no surprises that Martin was most effective when surrounded by Dawkins, Ward, Ibe, Hendrick, Hughes & Bryson.

Given only one of these are still with the club (& clearly not first choice for Rowett) trying to get the best out of Martin with the new surrounding cast is going to be challenging as we know he is not going to change his game at this stage in his career. This gives Rowett 3 options

1) Surround Martin with a new surrounding cast of players with skill sets to compliment his strengths (Expensive, Impractical & Unlikely to replace everyone although a couple of new wingers like Jota, Lawrence or Lookman would help)

2) Replace Martin with a more mobile strong CF to deal with longer balls & bring goal scoring runners into play earlier (Possible but the lack of rumours around this suggest that Rowett is not thinking this way right now)

3) Therefore in the short term with the players we have then switch to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 with Nugent at CF & Vydra just behind. This would allow us to play longer balls into the channel for Nugent to get on the ball & bring others into play & also have Vydra our current most creative player running at defenders when he picks up the ball in the hole.

We either need to rebuild the team around Martin which  is what McClaren would have done had he stayed or alternatively move on & get the right players for how Rowett wants to play. If we want to move forward we've got to stop going for half way house & trying to play Martin in systems & alongside other players that are clearly not suited for him. It's like trying to play with the handbrake on right now - so whilst all the Martin fans on here will undoubtedly now shoot me down -  it's time to say thanks for the service Chris but  it's time for a change & move on .......

 

[BramcoteRam84]

4-2-3-1 with Vydra behind Martin will be very interesting. I agree with the comments, think Vydra didn't play as didn't have full pre-season. I don't think 4-3-3 works with the current personnel, Johnson and Butterfield don't get up to support Martin.

That said, as much as I'm a massive Chris Martin fan, he needs to do a bit more than Friday night. It's great we have another good option in Nugent 

[BramcoteRam84]

1 hour ago, Cool As Custard said:

The key thing is not the formation we play but the combination of players that are used in each formation

In a 4-3-3 with Martin at CF it's critical we have 2 wide men & at least 1 CM who comfortable running forward with ball at their feet. This allows shorter passes to be played into him allowing the wardrobe to do what he does best & bring others into play in the final 3rd. As we know he does not thrive on long balls up to him to knock down/on to others.

Unfortunately on Friday night he was surrounded by Butterfield (can't run with the ball, prefers to sit & only passes sideways), Johnson (can't run with the ball, the touch & precision passing of a dinosaur) Weimann (can't run with the ball at his feet, poor control & either passes safe backwards or gives it away) & Russell (can run with the ball but decision making shocking & gives the ball away 7 times out of 10). It was never going to work & my only defence for Rowett is that he didn't have Martin at the end of last season to work this out.

If he wants to play this way then he either needs a more mobile, stronger CF to deal with longer balls up to him to win flick ons to put Johnson, Weimann & Russell into goal scoring positions where their finishing strengths can be brought into play - someone like Clayton Donaldson, or Cameron Jerome would be better for this role. Alternatively if it is going to be Martin he needs to be surrounded by players who are more comfortable running with & better at passing the ball in the final 3rd - no surprises that Martin was most effective when surrounded by Dawkins, Ward, Ibe, Hendrick, Hughes & Bryson.

Given only one of these are still with the club (& clearly not first choice for Rowett) trying to get the best out of Martin with the new surrounding cast is going to be challenging as we know he is not going to change his game at this stage in his career. This gives Rowett 3 options

1) Surround Martin with a new surrounding cast of players with skill sets to compliment his strengths (Expensive, Impractical & Unlikely to replace everyone although a couple of new wingers like Jota, Lawrence or Lookman would help)

2) Replace Martin with a more mobile strong CF to deal with longer balls & bring goal scoring runners into play earlier (Possible but the lack of rumours around this suggest that Rowett is not thinking this way right now)

3) Therefore in the short term with the players we have then switch to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 with Nugent at CF & Vydra just behind. This would allow us to play longer balls into the channel for Nugent to get on the ball & bring others into play & also have Vydra our current most creative player running at defenders when he picks up the ball in the hole.

We either need to rebuild the team around Martin which  is what McClaren would have done had he stayed or alternatively move on & get the right players for how Rowett wants to play. If we want to move forward we've got to stop going for half way house & trying to play Martin in systems & alongside other players that are clearly not suited for him. It's like trying to play with the handbrake on right now - so whilst all the Martin fans on here will undoubtedly now shoot me down -  it's time to say thanks for the service Chris but  it's time for a change & move on .......

 

Yes he wasn't fantastic the other night, but given we're not rolling in cash right now, it would seem daft to sell the man who has scored more goals in the championship than anyone over the past 3 seasons. 

[Ninos]

1 hour ago, Cool As Custard said:

The key thing is not the formation we play but the combination of players that are used in each formation

In a 4-3-3 with Martin at CF it's critical we have 2 wide men & at least 1 CM who comfortable running forward with ball at their feet. This allows shorter passes to be played into him allowing the wardrobe to do what he does best & bring others into play in the final 3rd. As we know he does not thrive on long balls up to him to knock down/on to others.

Unfortunately on Friday night he was surrounded by Butterfield (can't run with the ball, prefers to sit & only passes sideways), Johnson (can't run with the ball, the touch & precision passing of a dinosaur) Weimann (can't run with the ball at his feet, poor control & either passes safe backwards or gives it away) & Russell (can run with the ball but decision making shocking & gives the ball away 7 times out of 10). It was never going to work & my only defence for Rowett is that he didn't have Martin at the end of last season to work this out.

If he wants to play this way then he either needs a more mobile, stronger CF to deal with longer balls up to him to win flick ons to put Johnson, Weimann & Russell into goal scoring positions where their finishing strengths can be brought into play - someone like Clayton Donaldson, or Cameron Jerome would be better for this role. Alternatively if it is going to be Martin he needs to be surrounded by players who are more comfortable running with & better at passing the ball in the final 3rd - no surprises that Martin was most effective when surrounded by Dawkins, Ward, Ibe, Hendrick, Hughes & Bryson.

Given only one of these are still with the club (& clearly not first choice for Rowett) trying to get the best out of Martin with the new surrounding cast is going to be challenging as we know he is not going to change his game at this stage in his career. This gives Rowett 3 options

1) Surround Martin with a new surrounding cast of players with skill sets to compliment his strengths (Expensive, Impractical & Unlikely to replace everyone although a couple of new wingers like Jota, Lawrence or Lookman would help)

2) Replace Martin with a more mobile strong CF to deal with longer balls & bring goal scoring runners into play earlier (Possible but the lack of rumours around this suggest that Rowett is not thinking this way right now)

3) Therefore in the short term with the players we have then switch to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 with Nugent at CF & Vydra just behind. This would allow us to play longer balls into the channel for Nugent to get on the ball & bring others into play & also have Vydra our current most creative player running at defenders when he picks up the ball in the hole.

We either need to rebuild the team around Martin which  is what McClaren would have done had he stayed or alternatively move on & get the right players for how Rowett wants to play. If we want to move forward we've got to stop going for half way house & trying to play Martin in systems & alongside other players that are clearly not suited for him. It's like trying to play with the handbrake on right now - so whilst all the Martin fans on here will undoubtedly now shoot me down -  it's time to say thanks for the service Chris but  it's time for a change & move on .......

 

Brilliant 

[Woodley Ram]

I like them both, it would be interesting to see if they could both play off Martin. We would probably be a little narrow in attack and over reliant on attacking fullbacks. It would scare the s**t out of some sides

[Woodley Ram]

7 hours ago, Cool As Custard said:

The key thing is not the formation we play but the combination of players that are used in each formation

In a 4-3-3 with Martin at CF it's critical we have 2 wide men & at least 1 CM who comfortable running forward with ball at their feet. This allows shorter passes to be played into him allowing the wardrobe to do what he does best & bring others into play in the final 3rd. As we know he does not thrive on long balls up to him to knock down/on to others.

Unfortunately on Friday night he was surrounded by Butterfield (can't run with the ball, prefers to sit & only passes sideways), Johnson (can't run with the ball, the touch & precision passing of a dinosaur) Weimann (can't run with the ball at his feet, poor control & either passes safe backwards or gives it away) & Russell (can run with the ball but decision making shocking & gives the ball away 7 times out of 10). It was never going to work & my only defence for Rowett is that he didn't have Martin at the end of last season to work this out.

If he wants to play this way then he either needs a more mobile, stronger CF to deal with longer balls up to him to win flick ons to put Johnson, Weimann & Russell into goal scoring positions where their finishing strengths can be brought into play - someone like Clayton Donaldson, or Cameron Jerome would be better for this role. Alternatively if it is going to be Martin he needs to be surrounded by players who are more comfortable running with & better at passing the ball in the final 3rd - no surprises that Martin was most effective when surrounded by Dawkins, Ward, Ibe, Hendrick, Hughes & Bryson.

Given only one of these are still with the club (& clearly not first choice for Rowett) trying to get the best out of Martin with the new surrounding cast is going to be challenging as we know he is not going to change his game at this stage in his career. This gives Rowett 3 options

1) Surround Martin with a new surrounding cast of players with skill sets to compliment his strengths (Expensive, Impractical & Unlikely to replace everyone although a couple of new wingers like Jota, Lawrence or Lookman would help)

2) Replace Martin with a more mobile strong CF to deal with longer balls & bring goal scoring runners into play earlier (Possible but the lack of rumours around this suggest that Rowett is not thinking this way right now)

3) Therefore in the short term with the players we have then switch to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 with Nugent at CF & Vydra just behind. This would allow us to play longer balls into the channel for Nugent to get on the ball & bring others into play & also have Vydra our current most creative player running at defenders when he picks up the ball in the hole.

We either need to rebuild the team around Martin which  is what McClaren would have done had he stayed or alternatively move on & get the right players for how Rowett wants to play. If we want to move forward we've got to stop going for half way house & trying to play Martin in systems & alongside other players that are clearly not suited for him. It's like trying to play with the handbrake on right now - so whilst all the Martin fans on here will undoubtedly now shoot me down -  it's time to say thanks for the service Chris but  it's time for a change & move on .......

 

I have said for ages we need to replace Chris Martin with a more mobile version of himself (I do like Chris by the way), that time has gone as to get a Chris Martin version 2 would cost a fortune. Therefore I agree we need to play to his strengths and have the right people around him, Vydra being one of them.  Excellent post Cool As 

[PodgeyRam]

A Martin and Vydra partnership would rip this league to shreds, I'm pretty certain of that. They weren't on the pitch for long together against Sunderland but they still created the best opportunity of the match.

4-2-3-1 is the way forward I think.

     Huddlestone - Johnson

Russell    -   Vydra    -    Bennett

                     Martin

Vydra running onto Martin's lay-offs would be a beautiful sight to see.