Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I think I may be alone here, or at least in a minority when it comes to how I judge a bad signing.For me there is a distinction between a poor player and a bad signing. Previous Derby managers, Phil Brown and Nigel Clough had budgets that limited purchases to 'poor players', but that does not make them bad signings.IN another thread, @Daveo listed his "hit or miss" transfers in recent seasons, and I disagreed.For me, a bad signing is judged on a combination of three things, a) the amount of game time, b) the financial outlay, and c) the role the player was signed for. So, I'd say the likes of Chris Baird and Leon Best, whilst arguably poor players, were not bad signings. Raul Albentosa, it would have to be conceded, goes in the bad signing column, simply because of cost, the fanfare surrounding his arrival, and the subsequent failure to get game time. And yes, I am aware that I publicly thought he would be a success.Over my time as a Derby fan, bad signings are not strictly unique to this era, I could easily piss on the chips of Jim Smith fans! He was constantly making bad signings, Bjorn-Otto Bragstad, Mikkel Beck, and Fabrizio Ravanelli amongst the highest profile.Billy Davies can list Earnshaw (price and lack of selection) as his worst signing, although others would argue Claude Davis, I would say Davis was selected to play more, and as such, was more a poor player than a bad signing, but perhaps he's both!! Benny Feilhaber perhaps is a bad signing. Teale was maybe a poor player, but not a bad signing.Paul Jewell's stint was littered with bad signings, lots of money was wasted on players who didn't get real game time. I'd say Kazmierczak, Tito Villa, Sterjovski, Varney, Dickenson and Ellington could all be considered massive wastes of money. I would consider the likes of Carroll and Savage as poor players, but not the worst signings as both were first choice players for long stints at the club.Nigel is no different. He admittedly shopped in the bargain basement for 80% of his signings, he signed many poor players but they were not necessarily bad signings. He did pursue a few players who he then didn't bother playing, so the likes of Dave Martin and Chris Maguire easily go down as bad signings for him.In the recent era, it's debatable how many are bad signings. Mostly, the free transfers, or short term loans are the ones not getting a game, so it's hard to judge them as bad signings. It's been a while since we've had a player we've spent money on sitting in reserves and not involved, Albentosa is away from the club, so doesn't really count, but I've already suggested he could be considered a bad signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 You do not see Leon Best as a bad signing? I'll let Leon's face do the talking for me on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 You do not see Leon Best as a bad signing? I'll let Leon's face do the talking for me on this one. read above. There's a distinction between a bad signing and a poor player. Best is a poor player. We spent no money on him and he was there simply to cover injury or give Martin rest. We haven't replaced with anyone better have we? Who is the Martin back up? Nobody. People need to accept, this was a contingency signing and nothing more. There was never mention of view to permanent deal, like our proper loan signings. He's exactly the same as the lengthy list of loan signings made by Clough, such as Seb Hines and Michael Boulding, and Lee Naylor. There was little expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Think you're spot on Mostyn, save for Best. There's no way we weren't paying a significant chunk of his significant wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Think you're spot on Mostyn, save for Best. There's no way we weren't paying a significant chunk of his significant wages. I was told we were paying less than what Sammon's wages were, and this allowed us to let Sammon out on loan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Raul Albentosa, it would have to be conceded, goes in the bad signing column, simply because of cost, the fanfare surrounding his arrival, and the subsequent failure to get game time. And yes, I am aware that I publicly thought he would be a success.TBC as far as I'm concerned... I think he was a risk but we didn't spend an awful lot on him and if we can recoup that then it's not a BAD signing IMO... Just disappointing...Think you're spot on Mostyn, save for Best. There's no way we weren't paying a significant chunk of his significant wages. My mate is a Blackburn fan and says his ITK source said we were paying 20% of his wages (around £6k a week ish?) as they were hoping he'd perform and we'd take him permanently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 read above. There's a distinction between a bad signing and a poor player. Best is a poor player. We spent no money on him and he was there simply to cover injury or give Martin rest. We haven't replaced with anyone better have we? Who is the Martin back up? Nobody. People need to accept, this was a contingency signing and nothing more. There was never mention of view to permanent deal, like our proper loan signings. He's exactly the same as the lengthy list of loan signings made by Clough, such as Seb Hines and Michael Boulding, and Lee Naylor. There was little expectation.Bringing in a striker wasn't a bad, bringing in Leon Best was a bad. We would have been paying a percentage of his wages as well, I doubt he came to us for nothing. You are not telling me we couldn't have signed a better striker on loan, I don't believe it for a second. Nope, no, no, no, I'm not having it Mostyn. We may as well have brought Sammon back, why loan one terrible striker out to loan a terrible striker in? Makes no sense to me. bad bad signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Bringing in a striker wasn't a bad, bringing in Leon Best was a bad. We would have been paying a percentage of his wages as well, I doubt he came to us for nothing. You are not telling me we couldn't have signed a better striker on loan, I don't believe it for a second. Nope, no, no, no, I'm not having it Mostyn. We may as well have brought Sammon back, why loan one terrible striker out to loan a terrible striker in? Makes no sense to me. bad bad signing.name the better striker? Bearing in mind how much game time Best actually got...Sammon would've got the same game time, hardly any.So, the idea is, loan Sammon out, get his wages (more than the percentage of Best's being paid) off the books, and hope (as Blackburn did with us) that he's do well enough to earn a permanent deal. I would say that we hoped to dupe Blackburn, whilst selling Sammon.As for the better signing, no, I don't think we could. Whoever signed would've been sitting on the bench, who decent would come here for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 name the better striker? Bearing in mind how much game time Best actually got...Sammon would've got the same game time, hardly any.Let me just go back in time, make a few calls around clubs and see who was available at the time and I'll get back to you on this one. So, the idea is, loan Sammon out, get his wages (more than the percentage of Best's being paid) off the books, and hope (as Blackburn did with us) that he's do well enough to earn a permanent deal. I would say that we hoped to dupe Blackburn, whilst selling Sammon.Do we know for sure what the percentages are and how much both players wages were?As for the better signing, no, I don't think we could. Whoever signed would've been sitting on the bench, who decent would come here for that?I disagree, Best has done nothing for years, hasn't found any form since his injuries he was a complete and utter waste of space. You don't contact players agents and say does your player fancy coming to Derby and sitting on our bench, I'm pretty sure if Weimann was offered a place on our bench he would have stayed at Villa. You sign players that you believe can push for a place in the first team, Leon Best would never in a million years have come close. Martin must have been laughing his head off. Now you take Grant and Carson, you have a real competition for that position and both players no they have to push harder than ever to get into the team.Your argument of a poor player doesn't make a bad signing makes no sense to me, so we need Martin cover, doesn't matter what the player is like as long as he's a striker bring him in, Barry Trotter from Scotland Division 10 side the Highland Warriors? no goals in the last 50 games but we need a striker right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 On the flip side I believe a good player can be a bad signing, if you can't fit them into the first team or even a plan B, they don't settle well in the area, get along with the rest of the squad etc. it can be a bad signing.But a poor player will always be a bad signing, we shouldn't be signing poor players, no ifs, buts, we shouldn't. The target is promotion, now if you want to be seriously fighting for promotion you need a better backup striker than Leon Best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 But a poor player will always be a bad signing, we shouldn't be signing poor players, no ifs, buts, we shouldn't. The target is promotion, now if you want to be seriously fighting for promotion you need a better backup striker than Leon Best.One might suggest that the benefit of hindsight helps define a bad signing more than anything else?I was quite excited when we signed Best as he WAS a decent player with fairly alright pedigree... If we could have gotten him back to his best (no pun intended) he could have been a great signing... However it turned out he was past the point of no return quality wise and was dreadful for us...Always a risk but I still think was a risk (at the time) worth taking... Bent was a risk too... but one which has turned out (IMO) to be worthwhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 One might suggest that the benefit of hindsight helps define a bad signing more than anything else?I was quite excited when we signed Best as he WAS a decent player with fairly alright pedigree... If we could have gotten him back to his best (no pun intended) he could have been a great signing... However it turned out he was past the point of no return quality wise and was dreadful for us...Always a risk but I still think was a risk (at the time) worth taking... Bent was a risk too... but one which has turned out (IMO) to be worthwhile...Of course, I would never call any signing bad at the time, that's why I wouldn't call Baird a bad signing yet or any of the summer signings. Can't say Baird or Best excited me when they signed but you give them a chance, Best had a chance, didn't take it as he's not the same player anymore, he's a poor player that offered us nothing but an arse on the bench and ultimately a bad signing.And without knowing exactly what has gone on behind the scenes it would be wrong to lay all this at Chris Evans door as well, who knows Best may have been a McClaren suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Let me just go back in time, make a few calls around clubs and see who was available at the time and I'll get back to you on this one. Do we know for sure what the percentages are and how much both players wages were?I disagree, Best has done nothing for years, hasn't found any form since his injuries he was a complete and utter waste of space. You don't contact players agents and say does your player fancy coming to Derby and sitting on our bench, I'm pretty sure if Weimann was offered a place on our bench he would have stayed at Villa. You sign players that you believe can push for a place in the first team, Leon Best would never in a million years have come close. Martin must have been laughing his head off. Now you take Grant and Carson, you have a real competition for that position and both players no they have to push harder than ever to get into the team.Your argument of a poor player doesn't make a bad signing makes no sense to me, so we need Martin cover, doesn't matter what the player is like as long as he's a striker bring him in, Barry Trotter from Scotland Division 10 side the Highland Warriors? no goals in the last 50 games but we need a striker right?I'm not asking you to go back in time, it's YOU saying better players were available, I'm asking YOU to back up your theory, not agents or whatever. Best was signed to facilitate moving Sammon out. We did that, then binned Best, he served his purpose, you'd say he was a success. He left with us top of the table, or 3rd. The last time Best played against us, he was the best player on the park and had scored. But yet again, I am not arguing his brilliance, I'm debating his purpose. Yes a waste of space as your top striker, but no worse than others we've had in recent years, who served the same purpose.Whilst you don't sign players and say they're bench warmers, they do know if they're key player, squad player etc. Carson would know he's come in as number 1, the shirt is his to lose. Poor example, no way would Best think he's first choice. More that he needed to go into the shop window or end his career. As far as I am aware, Best started a game, so to say he wouldn't come close is wrong, as he did!I never said a poor player doesn't make a bad signing, I said there's a distinction between the two, and although your example is extreme, yes, it kind of proves my point. If you spend peanuts bringing in Johnny Nonleague to sit on the bench on the off chance we need someone to run around a bit, at minimal cost, and he hardly gets a game, then leaves, it's not a bad signing. We had him BTW, his name was Conor Doyle. He was a poor player, but not a bad signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Leon Best was the pot noodle that you have in the cupboard for when your missus isn't home to cook your steak to perfection.Connor Sammon was the expensive salmon fillet you bought but discovered was 'off' when you unwrapped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Clough, such as Seb Hines and Michael Boulding, and Lee Naylor. There was little expectation.Pretty sure that Lee Naylor was a McClaren signing. But I suppose it's ironic that the most Nigel Clough signing we ever made wasn't even signed by Nigel Clough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Leon Best was the pot noodle that you have in the cupboard for when your missus isn't home to cook your steak to perfection.That's more of an interesting insight into the dynamics of your marriage than it is about the signing of Leon best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 That's more of an interesting insight into the dynamics of your marriage than it is about the signing of Leon best.watch your digs Duracell, other than to confirm I am not married, it's obvious the comment was constructed to fit in with the dynamics of the forum. If you've got nothing to add to the debate, keep out of it (unless your moderating skills are needed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Pretty sure that Lee Naylor was a McClaren signing. But I suppose it's ironic that the most Nigel Clough signing we ever made wasn't even signed by Nigel Clough.not as ironic as you ignoring the point I am making in an attempt at your patronising pointscoring. Yeah, so I meant Ryan Noble, not Lee Naylor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Leon Best was the pot noodle that you have in the cupboard for when your missus isn't home to cook your steak to perfection.Connor Sammon was the expensive salmon fillet you bought but discovered was 'off' when you unwrapped it.Pot noodles are bad for you and I do all the cooking in this house, if I have no steak in I make sure I have chicken in as an alternative, full of protein and good for you.Pot noodles are full of ****, offer you no nutritional value at all and a bad choice to make, just like signing Leon Best.(Not that I think we should have signed another chicken, Savage was bad enough) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Pot noodles are bad for you and I do all the cooking in this house, if I have no steak in I make sure I have chicken in as an alternative, full of protein and good for you.Pot noodles are full of ****, offer you no nutritional value at all and a bad choice to make, just like signing Leon Best.(Not that I think we should have signed another chicken, Savage was bad enough)what if you cannot afford chicken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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