Live Game Thread 15/16

[Sexydadbod]

No has still answered my question, what has Stones actually done to say that he has world class potential? Is it because he is English and can pass the ball? Spain have hundreds and hundreds of players who can do exactly the same. You know what I can pass a football too, I guess I'm the new Xavi/Iniesta.

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, SaintRam said:

You have far more information to make a judgement about Stones than you do Shaw. To say one is categorically better than the other is silly, Shaw has played 20 odd games in two seasons. 

and Stones has made errors in most games, for sure but he's also playing against some phenomenal attacks in the center of a defense in front of a shaky keeper (a lot of the time, recently) and on a team getting absolutely peppered with crosses and general chance creation.

I'll personally be surprised if Shaw is ever fit for a full season ever again, so I don't see how he's going to live up to this potential he's been touted with. Stones will continue to improve, but I think he should leave Everton myself. 

Shaw was Man Utd's best player before that horrific injury. You're right that it depends on how he recovers from his injury but if he gets back to how he was before his injury then he will be a top player. Shaw is comfortable attacking and defending, I can't say the same about Stones. When Stones is a older I can see him being moving into a defensive midfield role.

[Sexydadbod]

3 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

You have far more information to make a judgement about Stones than you do Shaw. To say one is categorically better than the other is silly, Shaw has played 20 odd games in two seasons. 

and Stones has made errors in most games, for sure but he's also playing against some phenomenal attacks in the center of a defense in front of a shaky keeper (a lot of the time, recently) and on a team getting absolutely peppered with crosses and general chance creation.

I'll personally be surprised if Shaw is ever fit for a full season ever again, so I don't see how he's going to live up to this potential he's been touted with. Stones will continue to improve, but I think he should leave Everton myself. 

Even you must admit SaintRam that it is borderline insanity when people say he has the potential to be as good as Maldini and will be England's best defender since Bobby Moore

[SaintRam]

7 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Even you must admit SaintRam that it is borderline insanity when people say he has the potential to be as good as Maldini and will be England's best defender since Bobby Moore

Personally I don't like those adages. "Is the next...", "Can be as good as...". Right now he is better than most 21 year old CBs, (not the best, not in the top 5, just better than the majority) that's a fact. Does that mean when he's 28 he'll be better than most CB's in general? No. Does it mean he has the "potential" to have as good a career and therefore be qualified as good as someone great like Maldini? Yes. Does he have the potential to regress and end up being an adequate performer for a lower-mid table team for most of his career? Yes. 

Potentials a weird thing, and I don't understand why everyone's so keen on categorising it so specifically. Maldini was a rare talent. That level of talent is not any less rare and odds are against anyone matching his success, Stones or anyone else. But it could happen. 

People just like to be able to look years in the past and say "called it" when someone turns out to be great. In order to do that they predict greatness from the young players ahead of the other young players, they bet on the short odds. The storm after the first game of the season about Reece Oxford, for example, who's now being loaned out to Charlton allegedly.

I really don't like expecting anything of any player. A player is only as good as they are right now and I think far too many footballers steal a living because people think they're going to be great one day.

Is Shaw better than Stones right now? Probably. Will he always be? Who knows. Will either of them ever amount to anything worth talking about? Who knows. 

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, SaintRam said:

Personally I don't like those adages. "Is the next...", "Can be as good as...". Right now he is better than most 21 year old CBs, (not the best, not in the top 5, just better than the majority) that's a fact. Does that mean when he's 28 he'll be better than most CB's in general? No. Does it mean he has the "potential" to have as good a career and therefore be qualified as good as someone great like Maldini? Yes. Does he have the potential to regress and end up being an adequate performer for a lower-mid table team for most of his career? Yes. 

Potentials a weird thing, and I don't understand why everyone's so keen on categorising it so specifically. Maldini was a rare talent. That level of talent is not any less rare and odds are against anyone matching his success, Stones or anyone else. But it could happen. 

People just like to be able to look years in the past and say "called it" when someone turns out to be great. In order to do that they predict greatness from the young players ahead of the other young players, they bet on the short odds. The storm after the first game of the season about Reece Oxford, for example, who's now being loaned out to Charlton allegedly.

I really don't like expecting anything of any player. A player is only as good as they are right now and I think far too many footballers steal a living because people think they're going to be great one day.

Is Shaw better than Stones right now? Probably. Will he always be? Who knows. Will either of them ever amount to anything worth talking about? Who knows. 

Great well thought out post. It's a like from me. I also don't like it when people call a player "the next etc". It puts unnecessary pressure on the player. Just let the player play his own natural game.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Varane isn't even spanish. I bet you think that football doesn't exist outside of England, right?

Is Real Madrid's bench in France then?

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, McLovin said:

No has still answered my question, what has Stones actually done to say that he has world class potential? Is it because he is English and can pass the ball? Spain have hundreds and hundreds of players who can do exactly the same. You know what I can pass a football too, I guess I'm the new Xavi/Iniesta.

Hundreds? We are here for a while...let's see your list then...

[Mr Tibbs]

58 minutes ago, McLovin said:

How is it a fact? It's a fact that Stones has made error after error in every game this season. To say that he has the potential to be as good as Maldini is enough ammunition to put you in a mental institute, I mean seriously.

Because it's infront of everyones eyes. It's not a debate whether he can head, tackle, run fast, mark or be comfortable on the ball. He does all every week. You said he had no defensive attributes which just isn't the case. He's young, he's no where near a finished article and mistakes will come with that, especially with being the type of defender he is. I'd be highly surprised if you've watched anywhere near all of Everton's games to confirm that error statement too so we'll leave that one there. 

I must be mental then, it's good to get it confirmed. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Because it's infront of everyones eyes. It's not a debate whether he can head, tackle, run fast, mark or be comfortable on the ball. He does all every week. You said he had no defensive attributes which just isn't the case. He's young, he's no where near a finished article and mistakes will come with that, especially with being the type of defender he is. I'd be highly surprised if you've watched anywhere near all of Everton's games to confirm that error statement too so we'll leave that one there. 

I must be mental then, it's good to get it confirmed. 

He's a busy man you know...while not watching the Everton games he must also have watched literally thousands of games to know these hundreds and hundreds of Spanish players that can pass like Stones and not make any mistakes.

[Sexydadbod]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

He's a busy man you know...while not watching the Everton games he must also have watched literally thousands of games to know these hundreds and hundreds of Spanish players that can pass like Stones and not make any mistakes.

I've been to Barcelona and I've seen the drills the youth teams do. You would be shocked at how good these youngsters are with the ball and at passing. Even the goalkeepers are as good with the ball at their feet as the outfield players but I guess you wouldn't know that with you thinking that the prmeier league is the only league in the world. I've had enough of this debate, you may think that stones is the best defender ever  and that England are going to win the next 5 world cups or whatever but until I haven't seen anything suggest that he is good.I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. I think that's something we can agree on.  Cheerio. Don't bother quoting or replying to me because I shall not be visiting this thread any time soon.

[Bris Vegas]

I do wonder how many people suggesting John Stones is going to be world class have actually seen him play on a regular basis? Where have you built that opinion from?

It's an opinion which has been rammed down your throats by the likes of Hoddle, Carragher and Roberto Martinez - and now it seems to have been passed off as some sort of fact.

Stones is a bizarre one. I'll happily hold my hands up if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling people are looking for something that really isn't there. Largely because he is a unique player.

Defenders from England aren't usually as comfortable as Stones on the ball, or display the sort of confidence he does. But let's not forget, defending is the number one priority of a defender.

And so far that part of his game has been really lacking. Hopefully he does make it, but I've heard it all before with the likes of Jack Wilshere, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Joe Cole just to name a few.

[Mr Tibbs]

15 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I've been to Barcelona and I've seen the drills the youth teams do. You would be shocked at how good these youngsters are with the ball and at passing. Even the goalkeepers are as good with the ball at their feet as the outfield players but I guess you wouldn't know that with you thinking that the prmeier league is the only league in the world. I've had enough of this debate, you may think that stones is the best defender ever  and that England are going to win the next 5 world cups or whatever but until I haven't seen anything suggest that he is good.I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. I think that's something we can agree on.  Cheerio. Don't bother quoting or replying to me because I shall not be visiting this thread any time soon.

Here's the quote you didn't want. Just to point out how awfully wrong you are, who's said he is the best defender ever and we're going to win the next 5 world cups?  To my knowledge, nobody has said that and you're putting words in peoples mouth. My argument with you is to prove he is a good defender with plenty still to learn, so **** knows what you're on about with that reply. Good luck with the Barca youth team, coach. 

 

12 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I do wonder how many people suggesting John Stones is going to be world class have actually seen him play on a regular basis? Where have you built that opinion from?

 

Who's claiming he is? As above, I struggle to see where someone has said Stones IS going to be the next superstar in this thread, apologies if they have. Bar Glenn Hoddle, football coach and pundit, who probably has seen him enough to make that call/prediction. Is it wrong to say he's got the potential to be? I don't think so. I'm arguing the fact that he's a good defender. You don't keep your place in the PL (and all the other stuff) if you're not. To say he's got no defensive attributes is laughable. 

 

[Kernow]

4 hours ago, tomsdubs said:

Called other users insecure then posted 5 times without reply while making out other peoples opinions are inferior. Top quality posting. The football oracle is here.

Tell you what mate, go down the bookies and put £100 on Stones never playing for a top club or winning a major honour in his career if you are so sure he's overrated. Post a pic of your slip here.

No point humouring him mate. He was 99.9% certain that Derby wouldn't make the playoffs, and offered anyone on here to bet him on that. When I offered to bet him we'd finish in the top 6 with the loser donating to a charity of the winners choice, he ignored the offer.

Eventually after a few prompts he replied saying no because he was going to put £75 on it at the bookies instead, no proof of that as of yet.

No point trying to argue with him as he has none of his own opinions, only follows others. If Bris rated Stones he would keep quiet. Why do you think he's referring back to Bris so often?

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I've been to Barcelona and I've seen the drills the youth teams do. You would be shocked at how good these youngsters are with the ball and at passing. Even the goalkeepers are as good with the ball at their feet as the outfield players but I guess you wouldn't know that with you thinking that the prmeier league is the only league in the world. I've had enough of this debate, you may think that stones is the best defender ever  and that England are going to win the next 5 world cups or whatever but until I haven't seen anything suggest that he is good.I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. I think that's something we can agree on.  Cheerio. Don't bother quoting or replying to me because I shall not be visiting this thread any time soon.

Have you seen Everton training drills?

So just to be clear you are comparing Spanish defenders in training drills against Stones up against some of the best strikers in the world.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I've been to Marwell Zoo. The sea lions have amazing ball control. Not the best at football though.

[Wolfie]

27 minutes ago, McLovin said:

  Cheerio. Don't bother quoting or replying to me because I shall not be visiting this thread any time soon.

Are you 10 years old?.

I can't hear you...LALALALALALALALALALALALA

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I do wonder how many people suggesting John Stones is going to be world class have actually seen him play on a regular basis? Where have you built that opinion from?

It's an opinion which has been rammed down your throats by the likes of Hoddle, Carragher and Roberto Martinez - and now it seems to have been passed off as some sort of fact.

Stones is a bizarre one. I'll happily hold my hands up if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling people are looking for something that really isn't there. Largely because he is a unique player.

Defenders from England aren't usually as comfortable as Stones on the ball, or display the sort of confidence he does. But let's not forget, defending is the number one priority of a defender.

And so far that part of his game has been really lacking. Hopefully he does make it, but I've heard it all before with the likes of Jack Wilshere, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Joe Cole just to name a few.

Not seen many say he is going to be world class, just a few that say he has the potential to be.

I guess they have built that opinion from the clips they have seen him play, just as you are probably building your opinion from the same clips.

The fact that some world class managers share the same view would merely back up peoples point as opposed to it being the primary reason for them saying it.

Defensively he probably still is a bit suspect but he is a young man and you don't get too many world class central defenders.

[Bris Vegas]

28 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Who's claiming he is? As above, I struggle to see where someone has said Stones IS going to be the next superstar in this thread, apologies if they have. Bar Glenn Hoddle, football coach and pundit, who probably has seen him enough to make that call/prediction. Is it wrong to say he's got the potential to be? I don't think so. I'm arguing the fact that he's a good defender. You don't keep your place in the PL (and all the other stuff) if you're not. To say he's got no defensive attributes is laughable. 

 

Apology accepted, because there have been one or two. 

Is it wrong to say he has the potential to be world class? Well, the same has been said of Theo Walcott, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain and Calum Chambers and I feel none are at that level.

Stones is 21, playing for Everton. Why will he become world class? What attributes does he have to suggest he will go on to be world class? I mean, it's such a lavish statement and the fact it's been repeated on more than one occasion it seems like pundits are now trying to convince themselves it's the truth.

What does Stones have now that Phil Jagielka didn't have at 21? Other than a better passing ability? Is that the only reason why people think he will become world class? Because he can pass, whereas others such as Tony Adams, John Terry and Sol Campbell in years gone by didn't quite have this attribute?

Again, it's all about opinions and I'll happily hold my hands up if I'm wrong. But I just don't see it.

Just another point, and I haven't read back properly, but if someone is saying 'has the potential to be world class' and 'is going to be world class' I apologise, but to me it's equally a lavish statement. I mean, on the basis of that, you could argue the entire England U21 team has the potential to be world class.

And another point. Ross Barkley is in the same boat for me. I just don't get it.

[SaintRam]

1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said:

Apology accepted, because there have been one or two. 

Is it wrong to say he has the potential to be world class? Well, the same has been said of Theo Walcott, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain and Calum Chambers and I feel none are at that level.

Stones is 22, playing for Everton. Why will he become world class? What attributes does he have to suggest he will go on to be world class? I mean, it's such a lavish statement and the fact it's been repeated on more than one occasion it seems like pundits are now trying to convince themselves it's the truth.

What does Stones have now that Phil Jagielka didn't have at 22? Other than a better passing ability? Is that the only reason why people think he will become world class? Because he can pass, whereas others such as Tony Adams, John Terry and Sol Campbell in years gone by didn't quite have this attribute?

Again, it's all about opinions and I'll happily hold my hands up if I'm wrong. But I just don't see it.

I didn't bother reading your post as I'm indifferent on this whole discussion but I just wanted to point out Stones isn't 22 until May.

[Alph]

See Everton are predictably blaming the officials and ignoring the fact that they were getting deeper and deeper and gave up playing football before the hour mark. 

I'd say that cost them more. Surrendering the pitch. 

Jagielka said "it was an inch out and you expect officials that are supposed to be of a high standard to spot that"

An inch. From 20 yards. Maybe the ref gave up playing after an hour like Phil and his mates