Whitbread and the defence situation

[StringerBell]

​

He's just took a chunk out of the wrong end of the stick, that's all.

Yes but why? Dammit!

[Bridgford Ram]

​I will direct you to this link:

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/4312/Stages/9156/PlayerStatistics/England-Championship-2014-2015

He is statistically the 2nd best left back in the league and was the best in the league last year. 

Obviously stats can be deceiving and some people like to refer to stats some don't. Statistics don't give the bigger picture on a lot of occasions.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion on Forsyth but surely he can't be as bad as you make out if he has been an ever present all of last season where we finished 3rd and then all of this season where we have had ups and downs but still been a playoff quality team. Also rarely when he is playing Left Back have I seen him put the ball out of play for a thrown in. 

 

Also one massive factor for Forsyth is that when Chris Martin in on the pitch he plays a lot better. Its been 8-9 weeks since we have had Forsyth at LB and Martin up top as the focal point I think that should be tried vs Blackpool as that is a combination that has served us so well this season and last. 

​I don't watch a lot of Championship football other than Derby so I can't reel off a list of full backs better than Forsyth.  I am sure people who have seen more games could.

It does tell me (and apologies I can't filter the website to just show LBs) that if stats are saying that Forsyth was the best leftback last year and is the second best leftback this year then we are looking at the wrong stats.  I am sorry but I would be surprised if he is in the top 15 on actual performances.

[Derbados]

I wouldn't have Christie anywhere near the starting 11 for the rest of the season or the playoffs, he's had a complete breakdown and simply cannot defend, what he did TWICE i may add for Watfords opener a few weeks ago sums him up recently - liability

[ChaddesdenRam]

​I don't watch a lot of Championship football other than Derby so I can't reel off a list of full backs better than Forsyth.  I am sure people who have seen more games could.

It does tell me (and apologies I can't filter the website to just show LBs) that if stats are saying that Forsyth was the best leftback last year and is the second best leftback this year then we are looking at the wrong stats.  I am sorry but I would be surprised if he is in the top 15 on actual performances.

​The stats are legitimate. 

Tyrone Mings of Ipswich is the best LB in the league statistically but Forsyth is second. 

The stats it is referring to are as follows: Tackles, Interceptions, Fouls, Clearances, Offsides, Succesful Dribbles, Blocks and then pass competition. 

He is second in the league at those attributes. 

I think Forsyth deserves a chance at his actual position of LB vs Blackpool. Warnock wasn't much better after all.

[Southernram1774]

Our best defence, when all are playing well, is surely:

Christie Keogh Whitbread Forsyth.

That's on the basis of Fozzy offering more going forward than Warnock, Shotton being leggy at RB, Albentosa being too slow and clumsy.

I am ignoring Bucko as he is injured.

Should we not play that defence on Tuesday?

Please tell me if I'm wrong, namely regarding Christie as that is the most debatable option.

Also, remember the alternatives, i.e. Shotton not being fit and Keogh at RB?

[Bridgford Ram]

​The stats are legitimate. 

Tyrone Mings of Ipswich is the best LB in the league statistically but Forsyth is second. 

The stats it is referring to are as follows: Tackles, Interceptions, Fouls, Clearances, Offsides, Succesful Dribbles, Blocks and then pass competition. 

He is second in the league at those attributes. 

I think Forsyth deserves a chance at his actual position of LB vs Blackpool. Warnock wasn't much better after all.

​I accept the stats are legitimate, it looks a great site and one that I will look at a lot now that you and Bris Vegas have alerted me to it.  What I am saying is that to me it proves that you can't pick a side on statistics.  Whether there is one thing that Forsyth does well that has an unfair weighting in the calculations (winning aerial duels for example) that make him appear better than other full back I don't know but from watching him for two years he has never impressed me.  Even his crossing which occasionally used to include the odd great cross has gone downhill.

He cost us 2 points versus Watford by launching the ball into the midfield and giving the ball away, then misjudging the flight of the ball as Watford built their attack.  Despite this he is rated by the site as Derby's third best player on the night - he cost us the game for christsake!  Maybe the site places a high weighting on cross accuracy (I notice that they say he had 2 out of 2 accurate crosses) but that shouldn't see him rated so highly.

[ChaddesdenRam]

​I accept the stats are legitimate, it looks a great site and one that I will look at a lot now that you and Bris Vegas have alerted me to it.  What I am saying is that to me it proves that you can't pick a side on statistics.  Whether there is one thing that Forsyth does well that has an unfair weighting in the calculations (winning aerial duels for example) that make him appear better than other full back I don't know but from watching him for two years he has never impressed me.  Even his crossing which occasionally used to include the odd great cross has gone downhill.

He cost us 2 points versus Watford by launching the ball into the midfield and giving the ball away, then misjudging the flight of the ball as Watford built their attack.  Despite this he is rated by the site as Derby's third best player on the night - he cost us the game for christsake!  Maybe the site places a high weighting on cross accuracy (I notice that they say he had 2 out of 2 accurate crosses) but that shouldn't see him rated so highly.

​Forsyth's long ball vs Watford was actually straight to Bent he just didn't win the header because he is awful in the air.

I agree though after that Forsyth should have got back in to position better. 

[Bridgford Ram]

​Forsyth's long ball vs Watford was actually straight to Bent he just didn't win the header because he is awful in the air.

I agree though after that Forsyth should have got back in to position better. 

​Please don't see this as me being argumentative, I am enjoying the discussion.

 

Can you honestly say you agree with the statistics and Forsyth is the second best leftback in the league? (Do you also think that Jedinak is the 5th best player in the Premier League and the best DMC?)

[ChaddesdenRam]

​Please don't see this as me being argumentative, I am enjoying the discussion.

 

Can you honestly say you agree with the statistics and Forsyth is the second best leftback in the league? (Do you also think that Jedinak is the 5th best player in the Premier League and the best DMC?)

As I said the statistics are limited. The thing about stats are they don't include match changing moments, as you alluded to mistakes by players, assists before the assist. Jedinak might be the most consistent in the premier league at conforming to those statistics but he wouldn't be able to do what Yaya Toure does where Toure can go for 80 minutes and look awful then turn up and win you the game.

I agree the statistics all depend on how you interpret them.

With regards to Forsyth I look at other teams in the division and I have not thought at any point this season I wish we had their left back instead of Forsyth. His is certainly in the top 5 in the league, maybe not the best though.

The thing is you said you think he should never play for Derby again. I can't understand why you think that. Forsyth has had some wonderful performances in the last 2 seasons. He is young, great in the air and is a much better crosser than Warnock. 

I reckon he will play vs Blackpool and play well and go on to find form now he has Martin to find as an outlet, instead of hitting it towards Bent who can't hold up the ball. 

 

[GeneralRam]

Interested to hear why you're not a fan of Keogh and supposedly are of the other four based on what we have seen. 

All you have to do is look at my posting history to see why I'm not a fan. All the way back to when I was begging for Burnley to buy him before the season started .

[Uptherams]

The defence we saw today is not the solution with 4 games (maybe 7) to go.

I thought Whitbread looked really good when he came on and has a good record in a derby shirt even though he's only played 8 games this season. He is also a threat from corners and set pieces and a left sided CB which will help balance out the back 4. 

I don't rate Albentosa from what I have seen of him. He is slow, looks shaky on the ball and his distribution for saying he is from Spanish football is the worst out of all the defenders at the club in fact probably the worst distribution out of any player I have seen at Derby since McClaren took over actually. I don't want to write him off as he only joined half way through the season but he looks like a bad signing.

Obviously Keogh needs to be playing CB. Warnock is poor going forward, Forsyth is a full back not a CB and needs to play there.

Hopefully Shotton will have recovered from his concussion and Christie is available. 

What do we think to this defence, Blackpool is a great game for Christie to build up some confidence:

Christie Keogh Whitbread Forsyth 

 

​On his distribution. You are talking rubbish. He had 2/3 dodgy passes which came from lack of movement from our dire CM's yesterday. Forsyth's passing was worse. He is the most comfortable passer in defense we have at the club. 

[ChaddesdenRam]

​On his distribution. You are talking rubbish. He had 2/3 dodgy passes which came from lack of movement from our dire CM's yesterday. Forsyth's passing was worse. He is the most comfortable passer in defense we have at the club. 

I presume you are talking about Albentosa. Forsyth's passing was much worse than Albentosa yesterday I agree but we know that at LB he is much better and his distribution is good. Forsyth has missed having Martin to hit towards as well. Albentosa's passing was poor when I saw him at Wigan and Wolves away as well as yesterday. Buxton is by far the most comfortable passing defender at the club. 

We obviously disagree on how good Albentosa is with the ball. 

[YorkshireRam]

 

I don't rate Albentosa from what I have seen of him. He is slow, looks shaky on the ball and his distribution for saying he is from Spanish football is the worst out of all the defenders at the club in fact probably the worst distribution out of any player I have seen at Derby since McClaren took over actually. I don't want to write him off as he only joined half way through the season but he looks like a bad signing.

 

 

​Have you not seen Forsyth play recently? He couldn't find a white shirt yesterday...

[YorkshireRam]

​Best Derby County player today and only player that retains the ball and doesn't give it away constantly. Yep. Please don't let him play again. Put Jamie 'Do nowt then shoot from 40 yards into row z' Ward in. 

​Really? I thought he added very little to the game mainly due to his positional sense being off. When he came on, I was confused as to where he was playing and it seems he was too, wandered around aimlessly for large portions of the game.

Also, his ball retention that you praise him for I found to be very infuriating. There were times where he should have released it forward or made a run down the wing but instead dwells on the ball for too long until the only option is a passback to the defence. It seems to me Dawkins is getting praised for his indecisive nature when receiving the ball.

And for reference, I thought Grant was probably the best player yesterday (not that there was much competition). Best outfield was Hendrick, played his way out of trouble on quite a few occasions and got an assist (albeit an unintentional one!) 

[ChaddesdenRam]

​Have you not seen Forsyth play recently? He couldn't find a white shirt yesterday...

But when he is at left back he has much better passing completion statistics. His distribution from CB is poor but that's not his position. In the games I have seen Albentosa play he has had poor distribution in all of them. 

Either way whether Forsyth is bad or not is irrelevant. Maybe Albentosa is the second worst defender at passing the ball then. Still I haven't been impressed with him defensively or with the ball. 

If other fans rate Albentosa and want him to play that is fine with me I just think Keogh and Whitbread would be much more solid than having Albentosa in there. 

[IlsonDerby]

​Best Derby County player today and only player that retains the ball and doesn't give it away constantly. Yep. Please don't let him play again. Put Jamie 'Do nowt then shoot from 40 yards into row z' Ward in. 

If people don't appreciate how good Dawkins is after today then they meet will. Only player that never wasted p

[rezner]

Albentosa looks a bit lost to me, not surprising really, I was struggling to see who was supposed to be playing where. I also preferred Keogh at RB than in the CB position. I'd put Whitbread in with Albentosa and Fozzy on the left.

At the moment we're looking shocking and stability I think is the key. Pick a back 4 and stick with it. Injuries permitting.  

[RicME85]

I must be watching different games to those that dont rate Albentosa. The guy looks slow maybe, but he has a massive stride which makes up ground. He plays some perfectly weighted passes, controls very well with his chest and isnt afraid to kick it into the stands if there isnt an option on upfield, something Keogh etc need to learn to do rather than trying to play it out the back and giving away possession in a dangerous area.

Keogh Albentosa Whitbread Warnock would be my preferred back four if there is no Shotton. 

[IlsonDerby]

​Best Derby County player today and only player that retains the ball and doesn't give it away constantly. Yep. Please don't let him play again. Put Jamie 'Do nowt then shoot from 40 yards into row z' Ward in. 

If people don't appreciate how good Dawkins is after today then they meet will. Only player that never wasted possession. Only player that looks tiredly comfortable on the ball when Hughes is missing. The way he flicked it over an oncoming Brentford players head before playing a simple pass was great. Every one else yesterday would have just panicked and volleyed it clear. 

 

Lingaard played a pass 5 yards behind Dawkins yesterday and the bloke behind me was adamant it was Dawkins' fault... 

[LesterRam]

Im thinking, what about a bit of consistency, what about keeping the same line up, i know its a bit out there but they could probably appreciate playing alongside the same player especially in defence.