Bris Vegas Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 But he is playing for a team that is full of stars, look at the Argentina squad when he played and they weren't full of players that made them favourites for the cup. Barcelona would have probably won those cups without messi, or at least have a very good chance, Argentina would have not won without maradona. And England, Germany, Belgium and Italy were good teams at that time, so your argument is biased, and saying it is the toughest competeion is flawed, it happens each year, and clubs that win it, normally buy there way to doing so. If messi is as you say the greatest player ever, then he shouldn't have a problem producing the goods come this World Cup, and as you say that this is not a hard competeion to win, should have a gold medal round is neck at the end of it. I admit that Argentina are one of the favourites, as they've been in great form over the past 18 months and they've got a decent squad and an easy group to boot. Argentina had an easy group in 86, they were already better than uruguay and Belgium without Maradona. The only games where you could say were tough (after Italy in the group stages) were England and Germany. But England looked spent in the Mexican heat and Germany ultimately flopped in the final. I'm not trying to rubbish what is a great achievement, but I'm merely saying the Champions League is a far bigger achievement to win because it involves all of the best players. It's such a shame how players like Bale, Schevchenko, George Weah, Berbatov in his prime, Ibrahimovic now etc. can't participate because of their nationalities. You're right that the Champions League happens every year, so obviously the chances of winning it at least once is higher, but Messi has been the top goalscorer and best player for like 5 of the last 6 CL campaigns. And he's up against the likes of Man City, Real Madrid, Chelsea and PSG who have spent so much money on buying all the best players. People forget that Barca regularly play with around 8 youth team products. Messi will have a good World Cup I'm sure, but IMO, he doesn't need to win it to be named the best ever. Individually, with all his aspects and qualities, he's already overtaken the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I think the World Cup is a rubbish thing to weigh players up. Like Bris says, what about players like Ibrahimovic? Great striker who will never get anything out of international football. You could even say Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard have also not shown how good they are for England. I don't think Gerrard is half as good as he used to be but the England Gerrard isn't a patch on the one that used to be very good (if overhyped) for Liverpool. Messi has torn through great teams. If he's injured then "Barca aren't that good without Messi". If he's fit then "he's only good because he plays in that Barca side". He was decent at the last World Cup but didn't score. Not the end of the world. Maradonna v Messi is a great debate. But the stick that Pele uses to beat Messi is that he's never "scored goals like me on the biggest stage" Yes he has. Real Madrid, Bayern, Milan etc etc are better than anything Brazil came up against in a World Cup. I know it's all relative and it's tough to compare. I just don't think Pele picks the right argument when he starts his "I'm better than Messi" speeches. Maradonna was great. He doesn't seem to be so desperate to be labeled "greatest ever". He doesn't constantly have pops at Messi. Which is odd considering he's got a better claim. If Messi does win this World Cup I'm sure Pele will move the goal posts. "Messi never scored in the USA" maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Scotland. No, wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I admit that Argentina are one of the favourites, as they've been in great form over the past 18 months and they've got a decent squad and an easy group to boot. Argentina had an easy group in 86, they were already better than uruguay and Belgium without Maradona. The only games where you could say were tough (after Italy in the group stages) were England and Germany. But England looked spent in the Mexican heat and Germany ultimately flopped in the final. I'm not trying to rubbish what is a great achievement, but I'm merely saying the Champions League is a far bigger achievement to win because it involves all of the best players. It's such a shame how players like Bale, Schevchenko, George Weah, Berbatov in his prime, Ibrahimovic now etc. can't participate because of their nationalities. You're right that the Champions League happens every year, so obviously the chances of winning it at least once is higher, but Messi has been the top goalscorer and best player for like 5 of the last 6 CL campaigns. And he's up against the likes of Man City, Real Madrid, Chelsea and PSG who have spent so much money on buying all the best players. People forget that Barca regularly play with around 8 youth team products. Messi will have a good World Cup I'm sure, but IMO, he doesn't need to win it to be named the best ever. Individually, with all his aspects and qualities, he's already overtaken the best. I dont get this. How does the Champions League involve all of the best players? It only involves club teams. And it only involves teas from Europe. The World Cup is where you see the best players. Problem is they cancel each other out, its played in the same venues often in extreme heat and at the end of the season. Which means you dont always see the players at their best. But fact is they are the best players. George Best , Gareth Bale and so on excepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopRam Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Ivory Coast or belguim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I dont get this. How does the Champions League involve all of the best players? It only involves club teams. And it only involves teas from Europe. The World Cup is where you see the best players. Problem is they cancel each other out, its played in the same venues often in extreme heat and at the end of the season. Which means you dont always see the players at their best. But fact is they are the best players. George Best , Gareth Bale and so on excepted. The Champions League involves all the best players because it's a competiton for Europe's best teams and Europe's best teams have all the best players in the world. There might be some - for instance Ivan Rakitic - who is a phenonemal player yet to play at CL level but will at some point in his life I'm 100% sure of that. But don't be fooled into thinking the best players don't play in Europe. The Brazilian/Mexican leagues are supposedly 'good with excellent talent' but Barcelona beating Santos 8-0 is proof that the gap is world's apart. No way does the World Cup have the best players, becausei it's a competition every four years for six weeks only. What about players who were born in countries that have next to no chance, or ones that are simply injured. Did you know 12 players that spent time on the pitch in the Champions League final isn't going to the World Cup. I could give you loads of names of top class players who aren't playing at the World Cup, in fact I'll give you a world class XI who aren't going to be there. GK - Petr Cech RB - Daniel Carvajal CB - Miranda CB - Marquinhos LB - Filipe Luis CM - Marco Reus CM - Montolivio CM - Arda Turan RW - Ribery ST - Ibrahimovic LW - Gareth Bale Team number two GK - Victor Valdes RB - Branislav Ivanovic CB - Marc Bartra CB - Neven Subotic LB - Marcel Schmelzer CM - Isco CM - Henrikh Mkhitaryan CM - Samir Nasri RW - Lucas Moura ST - Robert Lewandowski LW - Carlot Tevez Theo Walcott, Cristian Tello, Jesus Navas, Alvaro Negredo, Nuri Sahin, Illarramendi, Nemanja Matic, Jakub Blaszczykowski, Rafinha, Gabi, Jovetic plus so many more not included. How can a World Cup with teams like South Korea, Iran, Australia, Japan, Greece, Costa Rica, Honduras, Nigeria, Algeria and Cameroon (minus say Eto'o and Alex Song) be deemed the best competition with the best players? Absolutely.... Not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabber Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You can't pick players that are injured to back up your point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The Champions League involves all the best players because it's a competiton for Europe's best teams and Europe's best teams have all the best players in the world. There might be some - for instance Ivan Rakitic - who is a phenonemal player yet to play at CL level but will at some point in his life I'm 100% sure of that. But don't be fooled into thinking the best players don't play in Europe. The Brazilian/Mexican leagues are supposedly 'good with excellent talent' but Barcelona beating Santos 8-0 is proof that the gap is world's apart. No way does the World Cup have the best players, becausei it's a competition every four years for six weeks only. What about players who were born in countries that have next to no chance, or ones that are simply injured. Did you know 12 players that spent time on the pitch in the Champions League final isn't going to the World Cup. I could give you loads of names of top class players who aren't playing at the World Cup, in fact I'll give you a world class XI who aren't going to be there. GK - Petr Cech RB - Daniel Carvajal CB - Miranda CB - Marquinhos LB - Filipe Luis CM - Marco Reus CM - Montolivio CM - Arda Turan RW - Ribery ST - Ibrahimovic LW - Gareth Bale Team number two GK - Victor Valdes RB - Branislav Ivanovic CB - Marc Bartra CB - Neven Subotic LB - Marcel Schmelzer CM - Isco CM - Henrikh Mkhitaryan CM - Samir Nasri RW - Lucas Moura ST - Robert Lewandowski LW - Carlot Tevez Theo Walcott, Cristian Tello, Jesus Navas, Alvaro Negredo, Nuri Sahin, Illarramendi, Nemanja Matic, Jakub Blaszczykowski, Rafinha, Gabi, Jovetic plus so many more not included. How can a World Cup with teams like South Korea, Iran, Australia, Japan, Greece, Costa Rica, Honduras, Nigeria, Algeria and Cameroon (minus say Eto'o and Alex Song) be deemed the best competition with the best players? Absolutely.... Not. Champions League had Celtic... gary hooper etc the best players in the world? Dont think so How many Liverpool players have played CL ? But they have most of the best English players. CL qualification is you have to be the best club in your country. WC qualification is you have to be the best players for your country and your country has to be amongst the best in the world.(plus a few wild cards) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Champions League had Celtic... gary hooper etc the best players in the world? Dont think so How many Liverpool players have played CL ? But they have most of the best English players. CL qualification is you have to be the best club in your country. WC qualification is you have to be the best players for your country and your country has to be amongst the best in the world.(plus a few wild cards) But I'm pretty sure Gary Hooper is better than Iran's best player? Obviously you are going to get a few teams with players who aren't the best, but the majority are there. CL football has all of the best players, you can't deny this. Any player from any nation can make it and the last 16 teams or so have squads made up of all the best players in the world. At the World Cup, this isn't the case. Half of Portugal's squad for instance haven't played in the CL because they're not very good, same goes for England. Do you honestly think if England played against Manchester City they would win? Man City would wipe the floor with them. I've already named you two starting XI's that are not going to play at the World Cup, now how about you name me a world class XI that hasn't played Champions League football over a four-year span... Actually, I'll make it easier. Tell me a World Class XI that hasn't played CL football this year that isn't going to play CL football next year. Here is another World Class XI not playing at the world cup. GK - Diego Lopez RB - Alvaro Arbeloa CB - Mehdi Benatia CB - Nemanja Vidic LB - Adriano CM - Nemanja Matic CM - Ilkay Gundogan CM - Hamsik RW - Jesus Navas ST - Radamel Falcao LW - Aaron Ramsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You can't pick players that are injured to back up your point! Why not? If a competiton only lasts for six weeks and comes around every four years then there is no guarantees that the best players are going to play at the World Cup. As for the Champions League, that's impossible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 World Cup being the biggest stage is b*llocks, it's about luck over the course of around 7 games against teams filled with players who could be playing alongside each other for the first time ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 But I'll be supporting any African teams still in the competition, just because I think it would be cool to see one get far. None of the European teams, I'm quite fond of Mexico so I'd back them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 2. Common knowledge in South America is that Argentina and Colombia have the best looking women, though in terms of numbers then Brazil has the fittest. That one from Modern Family's pretty piff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You can't pick players that are injured to back up your point! Even so, his point still stands. The best players tend to come to Europe. This is where all the 'dream teams' are. Real Madrid can be better than any national side. If the World Cup is the biggest stage then where is George Best's contribution? Gareth Bale will never make a World Cup. Surely that relieves a few full backs. I just can't see an argument for this being the biggest stage. Ronaldo and Toure aren't going to be able to perform at 100% effectiveness for their nations because they're way ahead of the quality around them. Would England like to be able to partner Suarez with Sturridge? Do Spain want Messi? The Champions League is fantasy league. Rich teams that can draw the best talent anywhere in the world. Nations can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In my own personal opinion Maradonna over Messi. Think this is a good debate in either side for this. Hard to compare different eras. Maybe I'm being biased but I was a young lad in the 80s early 90s watching the master weave his magic. Sorry to be biased but I think when your a young lad or lass you remember the great players from that era more and remember them being absolute superstars. No denying Messi ain't. Just think when we're young and impressionable we remember our heroes and great players more vividly more than when we are older and probably not wiser Another reason why older generations would remember Pele, Eusebio, Beckenbauer etc with aplomb and think they were better than Maradonna etc Hard to compare, but I stick with my youthful memories if that little Argentinian genius who single handedly (no pun intended!) won Argentina a World Cup and bought Napoli from no where to Serie A champions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabber Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 No I don't disagree, I am though an old romantic at heart and dislike this buying success that the Champions League has become, funny that now it is called the Champions league you can finish fourth domestically and still qualify, whereas back in the good old days of the European Cup you had to win your domestic league to qualify. I also like to think there is more pride in playing for your country rather than a mercenary playing for whatever club could remember your birthday!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-JW- Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 At the end of the day, football will be the real loser over the next 4 weeks. Jake Buxton will not be at the world cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam doughnut Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In terms of global coverage, sponsorship and TV audience I would imagine the World Cup is still by far the biggest tournament. As Lineker and Owen to name but a few found out it can turn a player in to a world wide phenomenon literally overnight. Would agree that the Champions League though has become the stage with the best players attracted by the money. No matter how big or better the CL becomes it will never, however, be able to replicate that power of nationalism and patriotism that only a Euro's or World Cup can bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 No I don't disagree, I am though an old romantic at heart and dislike this buying success that the Champions League has become, funny that now it is called the Champions league you can finish fourth domestically and still qualify, whereas back in the good old days of the European Cup you had to win your domestic league to qualify. I also like to think there is more pride in playing for your country rather than a mercenary playing for whatever club could remember your birthday!! Agree with that. With the Champions League I guess again it's further proof that it attempts to showcase the very best talent. Rather than replace Barcelona with the champion from Azerbaijan they make sure it's all about the best v the best. Couldn't have picked a worse name could they? It's a super league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In my own personal opinion Maradonna over Messi. Think this is a good debate in either side for this. Hard to compare different eras. Maybe I'm being biased but I was a young lad in the 80s early 90s watching the master weave his magic. Sorry to be biased but I think when your a young lad or lass you remember the great players from that era more and remember them being absolute superstars. No denying Messi ain't. Just think when we're young and impressionable we remember our heroes and great players more vividly more than when we are older and probably not wiser Another reason why older generations would remember Pele, Eusebio, Beckenbauer etc with aplomb and think they were better than Maradonna etc Hard to compare, but I stick with my youthful memories if that little Argentinian genius who single handedly (no pun intended!) won Argentina a World Cup and bought Napoli from no where to Serie A champions.... It's a good debate. Maradonna certainly has a strong claim. It's fun to debate. Just that ******** Pele keeps going on about people not winning the World Cup. Di Stefano never even played in one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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