Is Mr Nigel Clough tactically good enough at this level and should he go?

[Uptherams]

Someone mail Football Manager addressed to Mr NC at Derby county.

[uttoxram75]

The back 4 looked great, especially to say what little game time they've had together - we've the players just need the time and the patience to let it gel now. Lacking pace and a bit of bite, but not lacking enough to be lower than 15th I'd say, and more additions are on the way.

If everyone settles well we could surprise a few, but there's just been so many changes of late it's hard to gauge it all just yet.

Yep - and us. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[Alf-Inge of Fudge]

Using your logic, a 'lower league' team won promotion last year.

What do you think has happened to our squad that has turned us from a mid-table team to a bottom 5 team?

Yeah, and to be fair I think Wednesday will do well (10th-6th) this year. But both results together are a bit worrying, mainly because you have the edge over "lower league" teams - being 3-0 & 2-0 up and there should be a bullying presence on the pitch to ensure those "beneath" you don't even they can get back into the game, never mind actually do it.

Just think at the the loss of the likes of Shackell is a bigger loss than some would give credit for. You've made signings so fair enough, but last year we traded McKenna for Greening and we lost leadership & organisational qualities which concequentially turned us into a bottom 5 side - what Greening brought to the side didn't replace what we'd lost in McKenna 1 bit. I only view Derby from afar so can't comment too much as I only see highlights of the games, however your past 2 results would suggest the backbone of the team needs a serious spunk injection.

Like I've said, it's well sortable, but there are issues to address which, if left unchecked, will drag you down. You may not even have to sign anyone else, it may be a case of just a right royal kick of the jacksie from the manager sorting things, but it does need sorting - 7 goals conceeded at home in 2 matches against opposition you would looking to be above is not something to brush to one side.

[uttoxram75]

Yeah, and to be fair I think Wednesday will do well (10th-6th) this year. But both results together are a bit worrying, mainly because you have the edge over "lower league" teams - being 3-0 & 2-0 up and there should be a bullying presence on the pitch to ensure those "beneath" you don't even they can get back into the game, never mind actually do it.

Just think at the the loss of the likes of Shackell is a bigger loss than some would give credit for. You've made signings so fair enough, but last year we traded McKenna for Greening and we lost leadership & organisational qualities which concequentially turned us into a bottom 5 side - what Greening brought to the side didn't replace what we'd lost in McKenna 1 bit. I only view Derby from afar so can't comment too much as I only see highlights of the games, however your past 2 results would suggest the backbone of the team needs a serious spunk injection.

You're contradicting yersen! You say forest need time to gel but Derby, with as many new faces in, don't?????

[Alf-Inge of Fudge]

You're contradicting yersen! You say forest need time to gel but Derby, with as many new faces in, don't?????

No, I aint saying you don't need time, but we've kept 2 clean sheets and you've conceeded 7 goals in 2 games - our side need time but we're already showing we've the basics down and the bottle/longevity to shut teams out when we're ahead. That's more about attitude and effort than having time to gel.

Your lads have crumbled in the past 2 games and badly - if you gave them 10 years to learn each others games and get super fit it wouldn't make any difference until there's a concious effort to change the mentality on the pitch.

Clough could well be addressing it this very second, but your fans kidding yourself that 7 goals conceded in 2 games against such opposition is nothing to be concerned about reaks of our lot kidding themselves that a 4-3 defeat in the cup against Newcastle last year, with some decent footy played, was a "positive result". Facts were we couldn't defend - as you found out a few weeks later - and 7 goals in 2 games suggest you lads have a similar problem.

I aint saying it's not sortable, but fans trying to put a positive spin on both your recent matches are hindering matches rather than helping them.

[uttoxram75]

No, I aint saying you don't need time, but we've kept 2 clean sheets and you've conceeded 7 goals in 2 games - our side need time but we're already showing we've the basics down and the bottle/longevity to shut teams out when we're ahead. That's more about attitude and effort than having time to gel.

Your lads have crumbled in the past 2 games and badly - if you gave them 10 years to learn each others games and get super fit it wouldn't make any difference until there's a concious effort to change the mentality on the pitch.

Clough could well be addressing it this very second, but your fans kidding yourself that 7 goals conceded in 2 games against such opposition is nothing to be concerned about reaks of our lot kidding themselves that a 4-3 defeat in the cup against Newcastle last year, with some decent footy played, was a "positive result". Facts were we couldn't defend - as you found out a few weeks later - 7 goals in 2 games suggest you lads have a similar problem.

Well its jolly nice that you care. Thank you very much. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

[Alf-Inge of Fudge]

Well its jolly nice that you care. Thank you very much. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> Your welcome 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[G STAR RAM]

Yeah, and to be fair I think Wednesday will do well (10th-6th) this year. But both results together are a bit worrying, mainly because you have the edge over "lower league" teams - being 3-0 & 2-0 up and there should be a bullying presence on the pitch to ensure those "beneath" you don't even they can get back into the game, never mind actually do it.

Just think at the the loss of the likes of Shackell is a bigger loss than some would give credit for. You've made signings so fair enough, but last year we traded McKenna for Greening and we lost leadership & organisational qualities which concequentially turned us into a bottom 5 side - what Greening brought to the side didn't replace what we'd lost in McKenna 1 bit. I only view Derby from afar so can't comment too much as I only see highlights of the games, however your past 2 results would suggest the backbone of the team needs a serious spunk injection.

Like I've said, it's well sortable, but there are issues to address which, if left unchecked, will drag you down. You may not even have to sign anyone else, it may be a case of just a right royal kick of the jacksie from the manager sorting things, but it does need sorting - 7 goals conceeded at home in 2 matches against opposition you would looking to be above is not something to brush to one side.

Shackell had a like for like replacement, he was also captain at his previous side so I don't think any of the leadership qualities will have been lost.

The COC game really was just a freak game, we took our foot of the gas and made some substitutions which backfired. Saturday was different, negative tactics cost us. There won't be too many teams that can soak up 45 minutes of pressure from a big physical team like Sheffield Wednesday.

Ok we've conceded 7 goals, a cause for alarm, but what about the fact that we scored 7 goals?

[G STAR RAM]

No, I aint saying you don't need time, but we've kept 2 clean sheets and you've conceeded 7 goals in 2 games - our side need time but we're already showing we've the basics down and the bottle/longevity to shut teams out when we're ahead. That's more about attitude and effort than having time to gel.

Your lads have crumbled in the past 2 games and badly - if you gave them 10 years to learn each others games and get super fit it wouldn't make any difference until there's a concious effort to change the mentality on the pitch.

Clough could well be addressing it this very second, but your fans kidding yourself that 7 goals conceded in 2 games against such opposition is nothing to be concerned about reaks of our lot kidding themselves that a 4-3 defeat in the cup against Newcastle last year, with some decent footy played, was a "positive result". Facts were we couldn't defend - as you found out a few weeks later - and 7 goals in 2 games suggest you lads have a similar problem.

I aint saying it's not sortable, but fans trying to put a positive spin on both your recent matches are hindering matches rather than helping them.

How did we 'crumble badly' on Saturday? One of their goals was a wonder goal. So conceding another one suddenly turned it in to crumbling badly?

I would invite you to review the 7 goals that we have conceded and tell me in your opinion how many of the goals from mistakes of any of our first choice defenders or goalkeeper.

We have a few years of awful football and finally we are seeing a team come together that on its day will play decent football that will be good enough to beat many teams in this division, why would we not be positive about this? I would be more worried if we had played Fleetwood and Bristol City and only managed 2 goals!

[Asanovic]

If we can loan out Tyson and flog Bailey and bring in a new striker and an experienced midfielder who can be brought on to close out games I think we are genuine play off contenders.

I think we have made serious improvements in the transfer window this summer and I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised with how well we will do.

It's interesting that you'd loan out Tyson after he's just scored two in two games, and probably looks sharper than he has in years?

We've now got Sammon, Robinson, Tyson and Ward that could play upfront. I don't think that's bad going.

[RIMBAUD]

It's interesting that you'd loan out Tyson after he's just scored two in two games, and probably looks sharper than he has in years?

We've now got Sammon, Robinson, Tyson and Ward that could play upfront. I don't think that's bad going.

yes and perhaps one or two youngster to add to that.

[Duracell]

Find it a bit strange that after two games we've got a 17-page thread questioning if Clough is good enough or not.

It's been 3-and-a-half years of mid-table finishes - bad and good in equal measure.

By now, you should have your opinion of our manager pretty set in stone. Surely we've not seen enough yet for anyone to change their mind either way?

[RIMBAUD]

i'm not sure duracell - now we are really seeing clough's team for the first time.

i want to see how we do now. i love the style of football we are playing at times but the second half on sat. really does make me feel anxious.

i like our principles so far but whether NC has the ability to finally round us off into a team that has the ability to nail teams through tidy football and then shut up shop remains to be seen. we seemed to be able to do it last season - but not this one.

a blip? i don't know. i do know that i've enjoyed the games i've been to so far - 14 goals and a load of pennos - great stuff - pity we didn't win both games. (we are unbeaten tho')

[Duracell]

i'm not sure duracell - now we are really seeing clough's team for the first time.

i want to see how we do now. i love the style of football we are playing at times but the second half on sat. really does make me feel anxious.

i like our principles so far but whether NC has the ability to finally round us off into a team that has the ability to nail teams through tidy football and then shut up shop remains to be seen. we seemed to be able to do it last season - but not this one.

a blip? i don't know. i do know that i've enjoyed the games i've been to so far - 14 goals and a load of pennos - great stuff - pity we didn't win both games. (we are unbeaten tho')

If we won our first two games it would be no different. We could have won 5-0 and 2-0 and still finish bottom. We could have lost 5-0 and 2-0 and we could still go on to win the league. One team will be promoted with an even worse start than us, and one team will go down with a much better start than us.

Clough's signed a number of players now and last year's squad with only Savies in it was enough of a sign for people to judge (I sign that I liked, on the whole, for the record).

All we can tell from what we've played so far is we'll be exciting to watch much of the time and we haven't killed old habbits - although just because it's happened in 100% of our games does not mean it will happen less over the season than last season.

We all have our opinions on our manager - most having logical reasoning. I can see why you would not like Clough, and I can see why you would.

But I can't see how anyone could base their opinion on what they've seen so far this season. It's early days, and it's promising and worrying in equal measure.

We wouldn't judge the rest of our season from two results at any other point in the year, so why should we do it now? As you've said - scored 7, conceded 7. We haven't lost, and we haven't won. That pattern won't continue!

[RIMBAUD]

If we won our first two games it would be no different. We could have won 5-0 and 2-0 and still finish bottom. We could have lost 5-0 and 2-0 and we could still go on to win the league. One team will be promoted with an even worse start than us, and one team will go down with a much better start than us.

Clough's signed a number of players now and last year's squad with only Savies in it was enough of a sign for people to judge (I sign that I liked, on the whole, for the record).

All we can tell from what we've played so far is we'll be exciting to watch much of the time and we haven't killed old habbits - although just because it's happened in 100% of our games does not mean it will happen less over the season than last season.

We all have our opinions on our manager - most having logical reasoning. I can see why you would not like Clough, and I can see why you would.

But I can't see how anyone could base their opinion on what they've seen so far. It's early days, and it's promising and worrying in equal measure.

exactly and all the reasons/examples you given make me not make mind up about clough in the wider sense.

(and just to prove your point - we won our first four games last season and finished 12th)

[Duracell]

exactly and all the reasons/examples you given make me not make mind up about clough in the wider sense.

(and just to prove your point - we won our first four games last season and finished 12th)

That's fair enough then, and I enjoy discussion about games, of course I do. I just feel some fans, particularly in this thread, are putting too much into the discussion...

[Alf-Inge of Fudge]

Ok we've conceded 7 goals, a cause for alarm, but what about the fact that we scored 7 goals?

That's all I'm saying, not that it's major panic time but that there is a cause for alarm - our lot were the same against County last season - 3-3 with a win on penos and half our fans were kidding themselves that McClaren was great and that conceeding all these goals wasn't a problem.

"Great football" - "We can score more than them" - that's the type of stuff our fans were coming out with after such results and anyone actually looking at what was happening on the pitch could see that, as soon as the opposition had a pop, we looked vvank and crumbled like a broken busicuit.

You lads know yourselves, just look at what's happening at the pitch and if you think you've been geniunely unlucky and that there's nothing to sort then fine. I don't go every game so couldn't say, but from the outside I'm seeing things happen in games which are usually signs of difficult seasons/games to come.

It's the fact that these goals have been conceded at home which should worry you. So many in 2 games at home just says to me "hold up, somethings not right here"

[G STAR RAM]

That's all I'm saying, not that it's major panic time but that there is a cause for alarm - our lot were the same against County last season - 3-3 with a win on penos and half our fans were kidding themselves that McClaren was great and that conceeding all these goals wasn't a problem.

"Great football" - "We can score more than them" - that's the type of stuff our fans were coming out with after such results and anyone actually looking at what was happening on the pitch could see that, as soon as the opposition had a pop, we looked vvank and crumbled like a broken busicuit.

You lads know yourselves, just look at what's happening at the pitch and if you think you've been geniunely unlucky and that there's nothing to sort then fine. I don't go every game so couldn't say, but from the outside I'm seeing things happen in games which are usually signs of difficult seasons/games to come.

It's the fact that these goals have been conceded at home which should worry you. So many in 2 games at home just says to me "hold up, somethings not right here"

If it wasn't for the 5 against Ssausagehorpe, which most agree was just a freak result, then no I would think absolutely nothing of the 2 goals that we conceded against Sheffield Wednesday.

[Alf-Inge of Fudge]

If it wasn't for the 5 against Ssausagehorpe, which most agree was just a freak result, then no I would think absolutely nothing of the 2 goals that we conceded against Sheffield Wednesday.

'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Straight from the Steve Cotterill school of "If they hadn't have scored we would have won"

When you're applying Cotterill-logic to your season you know you're f*cked

Keep kidding yourself mate, I'm just trying to point out you've got an issue conceding, spin it out how you like - our fans did the same for the first 10 games of the season and look what good it did us last year.

[StaffsRam]

To be fair - when we pulled this **** before against QPR, we went from 2-0 up to 2-4 down. At least we got a draw this time! 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />