If Clough gets another 3 years...

[G STAR RAM]

With 40% of turnover to lose after this period at least and still a loss, not healthy at all. Also a 25% loss in gate income that year, just shows this should have been dealt with long ago. Expect turnover to be 16 to 17m in the next set of accounts. We have an advantage for generating income over Forest in that we have facilities to offer all sorts of things all week at PP that Forest don't have on the commercial side.

No not healthy at all, hence why they are trying to stop wages going up again. But your original point said they were not doing a good job of increasing income or cutting costs.

[davenportram]

Yes but they won't be any better because nothing has changed, in fact this season they will be worse off because they have had to swallow the VAT increase to 20% on the season tickets. Last season with gates down 3,000 per match and no cup games at all it is a pretty safe bet gate income is down on the previous season.

I shouldn't have stated the lad in the TO because you do open yourself to ridicule but it is true and match to match ticket sales are incredibly low hence this debate.

There has been a price increase since those accounts due to the reclassification of seats, and the discount for taking kids has been reduced (it used to £20 for both tickets now it's at least £25). I think this price increase might off set the drop in attendance.

[ianm]

No not healthy at all, hence why they are trying to stop wages going up again. But your original point said they were not doing a good job of increasing income or cutting costs.

Yes and I will stand by that the problem with matchday sales has been here for 2 years and no new plan has been put in place. You can' t rely on filling your ground with season tickets and families, you need to get adults coming in as well , gate receipts in that 09/10 year were derisory for 29k average gates.

If turnover is now running around 16k to make a chance of break even you are not going to be able to have total wages much above 10m, not just players wages, PAYE, directors wages and other staff wages as well. Last accounts they were 16.4 million, I can't believe they have dropped by 6 million or so since then.

I only make these points as people have this illusion because we have big gates and don't spend a large amount on transfer fees there should be this big pot of money to keep spending on players when we already have enough.

We have already set fire to all the PL money and more and what did we have to show for it nothing not even any quality players to watch. The only way forward is to develop the players we have and keep getting that wage bill down and hopefully it can eventually balance with the income the club now generates.

Maybe we can sell a player or two soon that a PL club will offer big money for and give us some breathing space. What worries me are we are still wasting 200-250k in wages on a left-back whose legs have so clearly gone. Why no research? Also spending money on a stiffs goal-keeper when we are still paying one a fortune. This does not strike me as behaviour of people capable of sorting the financial mess.

You can't take to much notice of what Glick says he tells you what you want to hear what qualifications or basis can he say we can challenge for a top 6 place but people listen to him and believe him. Gates will go up he said last week, yes they will but only because we are going to be over-run with schoolkids on free tickets in the next few Saturday Home games in the West Stand just like this time last year.

[G STAR RAM]

Yes and I will stand by that the problem with matchday sales has been here for 2 years and no new plan has been put in place. You can' t rely on filling your ground with season tickets and families, you need to get adults coming in as well , gate receipts in that 09/10 year were derisory for 29k average gates.

If turnover is now running around 16k to make a chance of break even you are not going to be able to have total wages much above 10m, not just players wages, PAYE, directors wages and other staff wages as well. Last accounts they were 16.4 million, I can't believe they have dropped by 6 million or so since then.

I only make these points as people have this illusion because we have big gates and don't spend a large amount on transfer fees there should be this big pot of money to keep spending on players when we already have enough.

We have already set fire to all the PL money and more and what did we have to show for it nothing not even any quality players to watch. The only way forward is to develop the players we have and keep getting that wage bill down and hopefully it can eventually balance with the income the club now generates.

Maybe we can sell a player or two soon that a PL club will offer big money for and give us some breathing space. What worries me are we are still wasting 200-250k in wages on a left-back whose legs have so clearly gone. Why no research? Also spending money on a stiffs goal-keeper when we are still paying one a fortune. This does not strike me as behaviour of people capable of sorting the financial mess.

You can't take to much notice of what Glick says he tells you what you want to hear what qualifications or basis can he say we can challenge for a top 6 place but people listen to him and believe him. Gates will go up he said last week, yes they will but only because we are going to be over-run with schoolkids on free tickets in the next few Saturday Home games in the West Stand just like this time last year.

I imagine you will find that the tickets problem is not exclusive to DCFC infact if anything I think you will find we have coped much better than other clubs, although I will admit I have no evidence to back that up but just a general feeling from looking round lots of half empty championship grounds.

The point about not filling the ground probably comes back to how fickle alot of our 'fans' are, season ticket sales only ever really reached 25k during Premier League season, before that I think they were probably even lower than current levels.

Don't really understand the bottom 3 points, would you rather have a board that supports your manager with his decisions or a board that decides what players they want to sign? I think the latter option is a very dangerous and expensive option (check out Chelsea's accounts)

[ianm]

I imagine you will find that the tickets problem is not exclusive to DCFC infact if anything I think you will find we have coped much better than other clubs, although I will admit I have no evidence to back that up but just a general feeling from looking round lots of half empty championship grounds.

The point about not filling the ground probably comes back to how fickle alot of our 'fans' are, season ticket sales only ever really reached 25k during Premier League season, before that I think they were probably even lower than current levels.

Don't really understand the bottom 3 points, would you rather have a board that supports your manager with his decisions or a board that decides what players they want to sign? I think the latter option is a very dangerous and expensive option (check out Chelsea's accounts)

I don't have confidence in Glick to sort the financial mess and have lost a lot of faith in Clough with the goal-keeping farce, the Kilbane signing and particularly the 7-2-1 formation at home. Its not the gates that concern me but the lack of income generated from them. I have put forward radical, fair proposals to sort that, which are certain to work are you watching Mr Glick.

[davenportram]

If turnover is now running around 16k to make a chance of break even you are not going to be able to have total wages much above 10m, not just players wages, PAYE, directors wages and other staff wages as well. Last accounts they were 16.4 million, I can't believe they have dropped by 6 million or so since then.

Total wages dropped by more than £7m, in the two years previous to those accounts (players wages on there own were £23m in the prem and Total wages were £16.4m in 2010)

how much do you think directors get paid?

PAYE which is tax deducted at source is no extra cost to the club, it comes out of the players pay, it is not on top of it.

Employers National insurance is the only extra cost on top of salaries, isn't that 12% up to the upper limit and then around 3% above that.

Found this in a discussion on the accounts when they were published

ok, I've just provided the accounts to Ramblur and so you can expect his dissection in the next 24 hours or so I would guess.

One thing I think I have quickly picked up on though (and this may not please some people) is the directors income & payment to GSE.

2008-2009 directors emoluments were £747k including pension contributions

2009-2010 these are £424k. (Adam Pearson was still in the clubs employment for a few months of this accounting period)

2008-2009 highest paid director earned £387k

2009-2010 this was £326k

Management Charges paid to GSE in 2008-09 was £375k in 2009-10 this is £189k

Interest Charges payable to GSE in 2008-09 were Nil, in 2010 this is £152k so it would appear that some of the money put into the club is a loan from GSE. However whilst this was due it was not paid to them - I believe that Doughty at Forest does a similar thing except his interest figure runs into several £m per year.

Rate on mortgage is quoted for the first time - 2.5% above Bank of England Rate so currently paying 3% on the mortgage, which is a brilliant rate for commercial lending and very little is being paid off the mortgage each year (presumably it is interest only)

TOTAL Wage Bill down from £22m to £16.4m

directors, including pension contributions, earned less than £0.5m

There have been savings made in players wages, and no doubt other staff in the club. We wont know how much until the relevant accounts are published. At the time of publishing players wages were said to have been reduced to £9m in the time between June 2010 and publishing.

[davenportram]

I don't have confidence in Glick to sort the financial mess and have lost a lot of faith in Clough with the goal-keeping farce, the Kilbane signing and particularly the 7-2-1 formation at home. Its not the gates that concern me but the lack of income generated from them. I have put forward radical, fair proposals to sort that, which are certain to work are you watching Mr Glick.

No they're not, because you don't know if they would generate enough extra demand to increase revenue. Your just guessing and as such cant say it will certainly work.

[G STAR RAM]

I don't have confidence in Glick to sort the financial mess and have lost a lot of faith in Clough with the goal-keeping farce, the Kilbane signing and particularly the 7-2-1 formation at home. Its not the gates that concern me but the lack of income generated from them. I have put forward radical, fair proposals to sort that, which are certain to work are you watching Mr Glick.

Financial mess? We have only a mortgage outstanding. Glick is trying to keep wages down but then faces a backlash from fans who want new signings. He is in a no win situation.

You have little faith in NC fair enough. He tried to build an attractive footballing team last season and look where that got us, now he has gone back to basics and is building a new team from the back. It may take time but maybe fans don't want to give him any more time.

I don't understand the rush to get into the Premier League, we will be completely out of our depth and will never compete for anything. Would rather spend time building a competitive team in this division.

If you have a suggestion for Mr Glick I suggest you send him an e-mail, I have done so and just the other day got a reply where he has asked for my phone number so he can call me to discuss the concerns that I have.

[ianm]

Total wages dropped by more than £7m, in the two years previous to those accounts (players wages on there own were £23m in the prem and Total wages were £16.4m in 2010)

how much do you think directors get paid?

PAYE which is tax deducted at source is no extra cost to the club, it comes out of the players pay, it is not on top of it.

Employers National insurance is the only extra cost on top of salaries, isn't that 12% up to the upper limit and then around 3% above that.

Found this in a discussion on the accounts when they were published

directors, including pension contributions, earned less than £0.5m

There have been savings made in players wages, and no doubt other staff in the club. We wont know how much until the relevant accounts are published. At the time of publishing players wages were said to have been reduced to £9m in the time between June 2010 and publishing.

Those wages had to drop if we still had 23million wages that would be 150 turnover to what it is likely to be now. In accounts wages are normally shown net and PAYE is total Tax and both types of NI combined, basically what you give each month to the revenue. It can be shown gross with the employers NI on top. Yes the accounts were better than the previous year but they were a horror show, and in the year showing they really needed to make some profit with the 12.3 relegation money final payment. The wages bill of 16.4 million was still too high and the thing that intrigues me is the massive admin expenses with no breakdown. I can only think there are some big player pay offs in there somewhere. I can't imagine what else could make this figure so high.

[G STAR RAM]

Those wages had to drop if we still had 23million wages that would be 150 turnover to what it is likely to be now. In accounts wages are normally shown net and PAYE is total Tax and both types of NI combined, basically what you give each month to the revenue. It can be shown gross with the employers NI on top. Yes the accounts were better than the previous year but they were a horror show, and in the year showing they really needed to make some profit with the 12.3 relegation money final payment. The wages bill of 16.4 million was still too high and the thing that intrigues me is the massive admin expenses with no breakdown. I can only think there are some big player pay offs in there somewhere. I can't imagine what else could make this figure so high.

You say the wages had to drop but I think you will find there are plenty of clubs that have come down and made no attempt to cut wage bills in the past in the hope they go straight back up

[ianm]

No they're not, because you don't know if they would generate enough extra demand to increase revenue. Your just guessing and as such cant say it will certainly work.

No I stand by it my proposals would without any doubt increase gate income the only question is by how much, I'll say this as well we would get a better atmosphere inside the stadium.

At Coventry on Saturday the crowd was small but they got behind their team a lot more than we ever do these days.

[ianm]

You say the wages had to drop but I think you will find there are plenty of clubs that have come down and made no attempt to cut wage bills in the past in the hope they go straight back up

Well ours didn't first season down but the players were crap as well so we have this double whammy of a poor team and a financial mess which requires the Yanks to keep injecting money to keep the wolf from the door, not to give us any quality players to watch.

At least Murdo brought in some good players for us to watch.

[ianm]

Financial mess? We have only a mortgage outstanding. Glick is trying to keep wages down but then faces a backlash from fans who want new signings. He is in a no win situation.

You have little faith in NC fair enough. He tried to build an attractive footballing team last season and look where that got us, now he has gone back to basics and is building a new team from the back. It may take time but maybe fans don't want to give him any more time.

I don't understand the rush to get into the Premier League, we will be completely out of our depth and will never compete for anything. Would rather spend time building a competitive team in this division.

If you have a suggestion for Mr Glick I suggest you send him an e-mail, I have done so and just the other day got a reply where he has asked for my phone number so he can call me to discuss the concerns that I have.

I think I might just do this and tell him of my matchday admission ideas.

[davenportram]

No I stand by it my proposals would without any doubt increase gate income the only question is by how much, I'll say this as well we would get a better atmosphere inside the stadium.

At Coventry on Saturday the crowd was small but they got behind their team a lot more than we ever do these days.

You think they will increase revenue, you have no evidence to say that they will.

Anyway back to your assertion that the club cant possibly have reduced total wages by £6m by the end of this accountiing period. Further review of the previous thread throws up this - figures in bracket were for the account up to 2009

Total wages £16.41m (£22.08m)

Players wages £10.5m (£15.5m) Supplied by club

Directors' emoluments £424k (£747k)

(Glick) £326,444 (£387,407) Included in above

Directors' emoluments are included in total wages.

So total wages were reduced by £5.6 million in one accounting period, it is possible that they could be reduced by £6million in 2 accounting periods which is what would be needed to be at £10m total wages by June 2012.

[G STAR RAM]

I think I might just do this and tell him of my matchday admission ideas.

Whilst I like the idea of cheaper tickets I think your idea could be flawed.

We need as much season ticket money upfront to pay off our revolving loan.

If ticket prices were made much cheaper I think it would make more people not want to buy season tickets, if that is the situation and we start a season bad them fans might just stop coming all together.

[ianm]

You think they will increase revenue, you have no evidence to say that they will.

Anyway back to your assertion that the club cant possibly have reduced total wages by £6m by the end of this accountiing period. Further review of the previous thread throws up this - figures in bracket were for the account up to 2009

So total wages were reduced by £5.6 million in one accounting period, it is possible that they could be reduced by £6million in 2 accounting periods which is what would be needed to be at £10m total wages by June 2012.

I'ts perfectly possible to do it in 2 years especially if you don't waste any more money trouble is with Bywater, Leacock and Pearson still on the books not doing anything that's upwards of 1.5 mill wasted money if we don't find a way of getting rid of them, which will be difficult as none of them have a cat in hells chance of getting another contract as lucrative as the one they are on, add that to the 200-250k wasted on Kilbane and you might not be too far off 2m 12% or so of our likely turnover. That might be the difference to us breaking even.

When you look at things in detail it makes it astonishing that people are still advocating we chuck more money on loan players some well past their best days, when we already have more than enough players on the payroll.

[davenportram]

I'ts perfectly possible to do it in 2 years especially if you don't waste any more money trouble is with Bywater, Leacock and Pearson still on the books not doing anything that's upwards of 1.5 mill wasted money if we don't find a way of getting rid of them, which will be difficult as none of them have a cat in hells chance of getting another contract as lucrative as the one they are on, add that to the 200-250k wasted on Kilbane and you might not be too far off 2m 12% or so of our likely turnover. That might be the difference to us breaking even.

When you look at things in detail it makes it astonishing that people are still advocating we chuck more money on loan players some well past their best days, when we already have more than enough players on the payroll.

I guess the comment form Glick about breaking even "if things go our way, and we have a cup run" was referring to moving players on and not having to get too many loans in.

At least at the end of the season Byewater, Leacock and Pearson are out of contract and their wages will be saved moving into 2012/13.

We might also be able to let Green and Davies go too but that will I think depend on the performances of Davies, Hendrick and Ball.

[ianm]

Whilst I like the idea of cheaper tickets I think your idea could be flawed.

We need as much season ticket money upfront to pay off our revolving loan.

If ticket prices were made much cheaper I think it would make more people not want to buy season tickets, if that is the situation and we start a season bad them fans might just stop coming all together.

Well as I explained earlier I understand its gone on a long time and you won't have read it all, season tickets used to have 3 or 4 free games as from if you paid every game match to match, now it is 9 or more, so there is plenty of scope to bring the prices down, increase the revenue and not affect ST holders at all. The Forest game under my plan the tickets would stay as they are as the ground can be filled for this one as people will pay extra for this fixture.

[ianm]

I guess the comment form Glick about breaking even "if things go our way, and we have a cup run" was referring to moving players on and not having to get too many loans in.

At least at the end of the season Byewater, Leacock and Pearson are out of contract and their wages will be saved moving into 2012/13.

We might also be able to let Green and Davies go too but that will I think depend on the performances of Davies, Hendrick and Ball.

I think I'll leave it at that for today, thanks for the debate and although we have come from different angles on this it's all interesting reading.

[G STAR RAM]

Well as I explained earlier I understand its gone on a long time and you won't have read it all, season tickets used to have 3 or 4 free games as from if you paid every game match to match, now it is 9 or more, so there is plenty of scope to bring the prices down, increase the revenue and not affect ST holders at all. The Forest game under my plan the tickets would stay as they are as the ground can be filled for this one as people will pay extra for this fixture.

But you could not be sure that diluting the incentive of being a season ticket holder would not have an effect on season ticket numbers. If tickets reached a price where only 3 or 4 games would free people could turn around and say they would choose the matches they wanted and miss 3 or 4 a season if they were that price sensitive.

I have said for a long time I believe our core support to be 15 or 16k, after that numbers will be dictated by how we are doing and the stragglers can't wait for an excuse to jump ship when the chips are down.