G STAR RAM Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Is that the dates the accounts were published? IE your comparing account up to 2009 (published 2010) and accounts up to 2010 (published 2011) Correct...did not explain very clearly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 What ate the revenues like when compared to the Prem season? Obviously strip out the Tv money and parachute money. If revenue has been maintained from other sources then Glick has done a good job at bringing in revenue as I would expect revenues to fall on relegation. Other revenues down about £2million since relegation from Premiership. Will post comparison later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 To be accurate, if you reduce your ASP by 10% you actually need an 11.11% increase just to break even. It works out like this: - Price red. ......... Req. Gate Inc. - 5% ................ +5.26% -10% ............... +11.11% -15% ............... +17.65% -20% ............... +25.00% -25% ............... +33.33% Just FYI. Martyn. Very clever, missing the point though, what I have said is that most of the people coming match to match either are getting free or discounted tickets. Very few are paying the excessive prices at the moment. Cut the prices, cut the freebies market it properly and there is a good opportunity to increase revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Have done. £15million loss in 2010, reduced to a loss of £2million in 2011. Income was pretty static, costs reduced drastically. With 40% of turnover to lose after this period at least and still a loss, not healthy at all. Also a 25% loss in gate income that year, just shows this should have been dealt with long ago. Expect turnover to be 16 to 17m in the next set of accounts. We have an advantage for generating income over Forest in that we have facilities to offer all sorts of things all week at PP that Forest don't have on the commercial side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Very clever, missing the point though, what I have said is that most of the people coming match to match either are getting free or discounted tickets. Very few are paying the excessive prices at the moment. Cut the prices, cut the freebies market it properly and there is a good opportunity to increase revenue. "Very clever"? Just trying to aid people gets their figures correct if you guys were going to debate it in any detail. You come across quite petty here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 "Very clever"? Just trying to aid people gets their figures correct if you guys were going to debate it in any detail. You come across quite petty here. I appreciate your efforts, and thanks for you help. Reducing ticket prices may increase demand, but that will only result in increased revenue if the demand increase in line with Martyns figures. Without detailed modelling, which neither of us can do, neither of us will know for sure. I doubt that it would, simply because there are no clubs reducing prices to increase revenue. If it worked surely some body else would be doing it. All clubs offer discounted tickets and freebies to some extent. I can't see any reason why we would be any different to other clubs. In our own history, as recent as 2006, when revenue needed boosting ticket prices were increased. Another reason why I think reducing ticket prices wouldn't increase revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I appreciate your efforts, and thanks for you help. Reducing ticket prices may increase demand, but that will only result in increased revenue if the demand increase in line with Martyns figures. Without detailed modelling, which neither of us can do, neither of us will know for sure. I doubt that it would, simply because there are no clubs reducing prices to increase revenue. If it worked surely some body else would be doing it. All clubs offer discounted tickets and freebies to some extent. I can't see any reason why we would be any different to other clubs. In our own history, as recent as 2006, when revenue needed boosting ticket prices were increased. Another reason why I think reducing ticket prices wouldn't increase revenue. Martyn's figures with respect to him are irrelevant to the point I am making. I do not need detailed modelling to know that at the time of the last accounts we made £10 per fan in the attendances listed after VAT. Knowing the price of season tickets and matchday prices it is clear plenty are getting in for little or nothing. So the attendance is made up of 75% ST h 5% away fans and most of the rest receivers of a freebie or discount, very few people are paying the full £28-34 to watch Burnley or £25-31 to watch Doncaster. There is plenty of scope for Glick to drop prices and increase revenue and cash-flow, with the ST prices being so low compared to matchday prices by dropping the prices to £20-25 for most of the matches, whilst still keeping the premium prices for Forest or if we draw United or Liverpool in the Cup. He could keep a middle ground of £25 to £30 for other games with a big away following. Other Concessions could be included eg £5 for under 12's £10 12-18's upped for the premium games. All freebies and discounts above this should be stopped all block bookings should have these fair minimum charges. Other clubs have dropped prices eg Coventry and Sheffield United did last year but other clubs like Leeds and Forest don't have the scope to reduce prices as their ST'S are higher than ours. The opportunity is their to get more from each attendee by both cutting the prices and the freebies at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Martyn's figures with respect to him are irrelevant to the point I am making. I do not need detailed modelling to know that at the time of the last accounts we made £10 per fan in the attendances listed after VAT. Knowing the price of season tickets and matchday prices it is clear plenty are getting in for little or nothing. So the attendance is made up of 75% ST h 5% away fans and most of the rest receivers of a freebie or discount, very few people are paying the full £28-34 to watch Burnley or £25-31 to watch Doncaster. There is plenty of scope for Glick to drop prices and increase revenue and cash-flow, with the ST prices being so low compared to matchday prices by dropping the prices to £20-25 for most of the matches, whilst still keeping the premium prices for Forest or if we draw United or Liverpool in the Cup. He could keep a middle ground of £25 to £30 for other games with a big away following. Other Concessions could be included eg £5 for under 12's £10 12-18's upped for the premium games. All freebies and discounts above this should be stopped all block bookings should have these fair minimum charges. Other clubs have dropped prices eg Coventry and Sheffield United did last year but other clubs like Leeds and Forest don't have the scope to reduce prices as their ST'S are higher than ours. The opportunity is their to get more from each attendee by both cutting the prices and the freebies at the same time. Your argument is that at the moment we have very few walk up customers paying full price for tickets, and that if we reduce the price we would get more income because there would be more walk up purchases. The only way that a price reduction will generate income is if it increases demand by a proportionate amount. So Martyns figures are relevant. If we have 1000 fans currently purchasing full price tickets, and you reduce prices by 20% you need to get 220 extra people in the ground to increase your revenue. If the modelling says that won't happen then you lose money by doing it and are better off selling discounted tickets, as each one of them gives extra revenue. Stopping freebies for kids could reduce demand, because psychologically people feel worse off even if they would be paying the same price as they do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiffy Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Stop all concessions, just have different season ticket prices for different sections. Gates will drop off for a time, but the hardcore will still turn up, and the club would , in a couple or so years be better off, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Your argument is that at the moment we have very few walk up customers paying full price for tickets, and that if we reduce the price we would get more income because there would be more walk up purchases. The only way that a price reduction will generate income is if it increases demand by a proportionate amount. So Martyns figures are relevant. If we have 1000 fans currently purchasing full price tickets, and you reduce prices by 20% you need to get 220 extra people in the ground to increase your revenue. If the modelling says that won't happen then you lose money by doing it and are better off selling discounted tickets, as each one of them gives extra revenue. Stopping freebies for kids could reduce demand, because psychologically people feel worse off even if they would be paying the same price as they do now. I don't agree with the bottom bit but I think the 1000 is probably an over estimate but with the figures based that it surely if marketed we could easily get another 500 in, bearing in mind we have lost thousands of ST holders in the last 2 years and the ones I know don't go at all now. It seems to me for a lot of people the choice is buy a ST or don't go to the match at all for a lot of people, we need a better balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 So you think that out of 5000 fans on top of the ST and away fans more than 4000 aren't paying full price? Let's use the 1000 figure again because it makes the Maths easier. If you get 500 in like you think we might then that's extra revenue of 280 fans, if they all are full paying adults maximum extra revenue is £8400 per game, £193000 for the season. (Using your prices which ae a reduction of between 20-30% depending on the current game category system that you want to remove so for some games this wil be reduced). How much would the advertising campaign cost? If you sell 500 discounted tickets at £15 per game that gives you £7,500 extra revenue per game, £172,000 for the season. Not much difference but is £20,000 enough to risk changing to blanket reduction and it not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 So you think that out of 5000 fans on top of the ST and away fans more than 4000 aren't paying full price? Let's use the 1000 figure again because it makes the Maths easier. If you get 500 in like you think we might then that's extra revenue of 280 fans, if they all are full paying adults maximum extra revenue is £8400 per game, £193000 for the season. (Using your prices which ae a reduction of between 20-30% depending on the current game category system that you want to remove so for some games this wil be reduced). How much would the advertising campaign cost? If you sell 500 discounted tickets at £15 per game that gives you £7,500 extra revenue per game, £172,000 for the season. Not much difference but is £20,000 enough to risk changing to blanket reduction and it not working. Yes out of the 4-5000 it sounds ridiculous but totally true, I know a guy in the ticket office and yes we sell hundreds not thousands of full priced adult tickets match to match. 500 is lowest estimate I reckon we could get a lot more than that and the marketing would cost next to nothing. People are not paying £15 for the discounted tickets on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Yes out of the 4-5000 it sounds ridiculous but totally true, I know a guy in the ticket office and yes we sell hundreds not thousands of full priced adult tickets match to match. 500 is lowest estimate I reckon we could get a lot more than that and the marketing would cost next to nothing. People are not paying £15 for the discounted tickets on average. It's gone from being an opinion to now knowing someone in the ticket office. Amazing that it does this when something is pointed out that you admit sounds rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It's gone from being an opinion to now knowing someone in the ticket office. Amazing that it does this when something is pointed out that you admit sounds rediculous. Im sure 99% of sources of this forum are full of bull, I dont quite see how anyone can understand how many we sell against free against, other tickets, in relation to the money earned in sponsorship etc...which is offset against this. Pretty sure Glick will have this one covered, however just think if we did want extra revenue, wonder how much we would free up by getting rid of Glick, is he the biggest pay earner at the club, would it free wages for 1 or 2 players ? Just a question ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It's gone from being an opinion to now knowing someone in the ticket office. Amazing that it does this when something is pointed out that you admit sounds rediculous. Its never been opinion do the maths last accounts total gate income 6.3m, average attendance that season 29,000*23 667,000 plus 3 cup games. Less than £10 after vat per attendee, with VAT around £11. Pretty obvious that for most matches not too many are paying full adult prices with those figures bearing in mind how much ST'S cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Im sure 99% of sources of this forum are full of bull, I dont quite see how anyone can understand how many we sell against free against, other tickets, in relation to the money earned in sponsorship etc...which is offset against this. Pretty sure Glick will have this one covered, however just think if we did want extra revenue, wonder how much we would free up by getting rid of Glick, is he the biggest pay earner at the club, would it free wages for 1 or 2 players ? Just a question ? Well if you added the total sponsorship and advertising of 2.2m to the gate money that only takes you to £14 per head before you take the VAT out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Well if you added the total sponsorship and advertising of 2.2m to the gate money that only takes you to £14 per head before you take the VAT out. And the accounting period is from when and to when ? How do 2 or more year deals for sponsorship get attributed for in the figures ? How many are free season tickets to the under 10's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Its never been opinion do the maths last accounts total gate income 6.3m, average attendance that season 29,000*23 667,000 plus 3 cup games. Less than £10 after vat per attendee, with VAT around £11. Pretty obvious that for most matches not too many are paying full adult prices with those figures bearing in mind how much ST'S cost. You said "I think the 1000 figure is an overestimation" that's your opinion. When I questioned it you amazingly produced a source. The Maths you mention ate great for the 09/10 season but bear no relation to last season or this season because there are no figures available for those seasons. Until the accounts are published next year you have no idea what gate revenues were for last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 And the accounting period is from when and to when ? How do 2 or more year deals for sponsorship get attributed for in the figures ? How many are free season tickets to the under 10's ? In accounts an accruals basis is used not cash, so if you got a 2 year sponsorship deal worth 100k 50 k would go into each year. I don't agree with free tickets for under 12's £5 a match would be fairer to everyone. Yes there are a lot of free tickets right across the spectrum that much is pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 You said "I think the 1000 figure is an overestimation" that's your opinion. When I questioned it you amazingly produced a source. The Maths you mention ate great for the 09/10 season but bear no relation to last season or this season because there are no figures available for those seasons. Until the accounts are published next year you have no idea what gate revenues were for last season. Yes but they won't be any better because nothing has changed, in fact this season they will be worse off because they have had to swallow the VAT increase to 20% on the season tickets. Last season with gates down 3,000 per match and no cup games at all it is a pretty safe bet gate income is down on the previous season. I shouldn't have stated the lad in the TO because you do open yourself to ridicule but it is true and match to match ticket sales are incredibly low hence this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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