GboroRam Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Out of interest, under which criteria has Clough failed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I don't think he's failed at all. The following arguments are so boring from the 'Clough Out' brigade, it's making this forum unenjoyable: .I love Clough because of the name - it's b*llocks. I don't love Clough, and I wasn't even an idea when we were winning the league in the 70's. I've no affiliation with the Clough name, other than my Dad harping on about Snr, and Jnr currently managing my team. No romance, no nothing. .Year on year improvement, or lack thereof. There are so many variables in this argument. The teams in the league were different when Clough took over, so we're not playing against the same set of sides. We've reduced the wage bill from £18m to £8 in his tenure. We had to sell our top goalscorer half way through the season, and our best striker at the beginning. Year on year doesn't come in to it. Looking at points and places there's no improvement, but if you're measuring it in terms of turning us in to a viable business, then yes, definitely, and we're now coming out the other end where we can buy players. . Playing players out of position - every manager does it at one time or another. People slated him for playing Brayford through the middle but they also forget games like Ipswich away when we were magnificent defensively. At the heart of it? John Brayford, centre back. We're on a bad run - don't blame it on something that was working only a few months ago. . 'Phil Brown didn't get the same opportunity'. I think there was probably a valid argument to keep him for longer, as it is proven that longevity of a manager's service generally yields positive longer term results, but we didn't. So learn from it, and stop calling for the manager's head! .'We are underperforming' - We have a bunch of players performing at the level where they should be. We're not a top half team, not close, and hopefully the Summer will change that. If we invest heavily and it doesn't work I'll be the first to say so. . 'Clough is poor in the transfer market' - What about Brayford, Bailey, Kuqi, Cwyka, Fielding? He's been forced into EMERGENCY loans - the likes of Theo Robinson. The jury is out on Ben Davies but I don't really want to write him off just yet. Gareth Roberts has been poor but no manager gets every transfer right - ask Alex Ferguson. So to summarise - I don't think he's THE man for the job, there are others who could succed with Derby, but I do feel he's one of them. And thankfully the board have the foresight to see this as well. As a season ticket holder I'd be absolutely livid if my money was being spent on paying Clough out of a contract to replace him with someone of a similar standard which, looking at recent investment, is all the board would pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Dont think clough will succeed imo, however he has not been given the tools to do so yet. Its amazing how many people complemented his man managment skills when we were doing well, now anything he does get lambasted. The answer is not replacing him, we have a far deeper problem at our club than the manager, and anybody coming in will face the same problems he has. We are a club going backwards, and its very short sighted to believe that a change in manager will change that. Its easy to say teams are doing well working on a similar budget, but they do not have a demanding large fan base who would be more than happy with the signings of the likes of Robinson etc... and would give them the chance to settle in. We have not been able to replace players with better quality, and that is not down to the manager, if Clough had spent money on bringing replacements in and failed, then I could understand the reason behind sacking him, but he has not, so thereofre the job he has been doing is impossible to suceed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 How many of the 39 this season would you say are unjustified, baring in mind that the people that run the respective clubs thought them so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiffy Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Just to turn your question around how many were justified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Ever one, according to their clubs. I dont feel sorry for managers, they leave clubs in the sh it often enough when something supposedly better comes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 What is your opinion though? Did Gannon deserve the sack for Port Vale being 7th with a game in hand on everyone around them, which ithey had win, they would have gone 3rd? Are you saying a manager should stay at a club until he is sacked or retires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiffy Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 What is your opinion though? Did Gannon deserve the sack for Port Vale being 7th with a game in hand on everyone around them, which ithey had win, they would have gone 3rd? Are you saying a manager should stay at a club until he is sacked or retires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastKentRam Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think that was more to do with the fight him and Geoff Horsfield had on the bus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 . The board won't sack Clough . He will get money to spend in the Summer . That will be the real time to judge him Not sure how much further this thread can go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 and all the players and fans hating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 What is your opinion though? Did Gannon deserve the sack for Port Vale being 7th with a game in hand on everyone around them, which ithey had win, they would have gone 3rd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Ok so I used a poor example, but the point I was getting at was that not all managers deserve the sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Wilko, I don't doubt your passion nor ever gainsay your (or anyone elses) right to an opinion. I don't debate your points with you because I've tried before and it's a futile exercise. I won't ever come over to your side in terms of sacking the manager, because I've seen that happen time and time and time again in football, only to see it fall completely flat. There is a far stronger argument for stability. OK, some say that backing the wrong man is futile, I agree, but the jury should be out on Clough and remain so until we have a squad that any fan can look at and say, honestly, "that is a team that should achieve something". The overriding issue dictating the quality of the squad is the finance available to build it. GSE realise that now and have promised to rectify the matter this summer. Picking out a club that has finished higher up a league table on less budget just doesn't work on any level. I have tried in vain to debtate this with you. The complexity is the starting point. Have you ever worked in a firm where everyone knows that half the workforce has to be either removed entirely or replaced by cheaper people? The sense of fear, stagnation, lack of opportunity pervades everything. Then there's fans' expectations, the injuries to key players, the sale of key players without adequate replacement, the reliance on semi-committed / questionable fitness and talent loanees to put out a team; all of these hit player confidence and there isn't a player, manager or pundit in the land that doesn't agree that confidence is the #1 factor in the difference between a team that plays free flowing or nervy football. Given that complexity, the only arguments I've heard back is that Clough SHOULD be able to motivate, or it's his player selection, or tactics that are the reason. These arguments show so little understanding of the full picture that, yes, I do get very frustrated and express that frustration in such a way that it comes over as arrogant. It is entirely pragmatic, sensible, whatever you want to call it, to see this through and give the management team a season - and I mean a season, not whining by October if we're not storming the league - with a squad capable of more than scraping by in the championship, before moving on to someone else manager-wise. Those who have a fixation for changing the manager and everything will be alright pick any stick to beat Clough with and it creates tension. The only saving grace is that Tom Glick is steadfast enough to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteDerby Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I don't think he's failed at all. The following arguments are so boring from the 'Clough Out' brigade, it's making this forum unenjoyable: .I love Clough because of the name - it's b*llocks. I don't love Clough, and I wasn't even an idea when we were winning the league in the 70's. I've no affiliation with the Clough name, other than my Dad harping on about Snr, and Jnr currently managing my team. No romance, no nothing. .Year on year improvement, or lack thereof. There are so many variables in this argument. The teams in the league were different when Clough took over, so we're not playing against the same set of sides. We've reduced the wage bill from £18m to £8 in his tenure. We had to sell our top goalscorer half way through the season, and our best striker at the beginning. Year on year doesn't come in to it. Looking at points and places there's no improvement, but if you're measuring it in terms of turning us in to a viable business, then yes, definitely, and we're now coming out the other end where we can buy players. . Playing players out of position - every manager does it at one time or another. People slated him for playing Brayford through the middle but they also forget games like Ipswich away when we were magnificent defensively. At the heart of it? John Brayford, centre back. We're on a bad run - don't blame it on something that was working only a few months ago. . 'Phil Brown didn't get the same opportunity'. I think there was probably a valid argument to keep him for longer, as it is proven that longevity of a manager's service generally yields positive longer term results, but we didn't. So learn from it, and stop calling for the manager's head! .'We are underperforming' - We have a bunch of players performing at the level where they should be. We're not a top half team, not close, and hopefully the Summer will change that. If we invest heavily and it doesn't work I'll be the first to say so. . 'Clough is poor in the transfer market' - What about Brayford, Bailey, Kuqi, Cwyka, Fielding? He's been forced into EMERGENCY loans - the likes of Theo Robinson. The jury is out on Ben Davies but I don't really want to write him off just yet. Gareth Roberts has been poor but no manager gets every transfer right - ask Alex Ferguson. So to summarise - I don't think he's THE man for the job, there are others who could succed with Derby, but I do feel he's one of them. And thankfully the board have the foresight to see this as well. As a season ticket holder I'd be absolutely livid if my money was being spent on paying Clough out of a contract to replace him with someone of a similar standard which, looking at recent investment, is all the board would pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrymalloy Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Went to 'Wing Wa' in Burton Monday night.. A chinese restaurant and we had a lovely time.. the two kids especially. Eat as much as you like and the variety was to doe for .. sure some ethics on question and my partner is a vegan so I'm well aware of that anyway lol Anyway.. to my point. On way back we passed Burton's pirelli stadium . it came pretty quickly, and I was shouting 'hey' ect.. And the missus was saying it's grand and brand new ect... All I could think of was the disparity between that, and Pride Park .. Jeez... Burton's Pirelli looked tiny in comparison. And sure, it did cross my mind the 'step up' Nigel has made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteDerby Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Anyway.. to my point. On way back we passed Burton's pirelli stadium . it came pretty quickly, and I was shouting 'hey' ect.. And the missus was saying it's grand and brand new ect... All I could think of was the disparity between that, and Pride Park .. Jeez... Burton's Pirelli looked tiny in comparison. And sure, it did cross my mind the 'step up' Nigel has made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilkoRam Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Good point. I would imagine it would seem a similar step up from Hartlepools to DCFC back in the 60's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteDerby Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 But just like players, not all managers can make that step up. The level a manager or player has to step up doesn't matter it's down to if the manager or player is good enough at the new level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 This season has been a disappointment, there's no denying that. But, we have just seen good performances against Swansea and Leeds, a battling draw against Coventry. Who would have saidwe woud have picked up 8 points ou of the last 15 the last 15, and only lost 4 games in the last 10. This year we have seem some great football, some ***** and recently some battling performances with some nice football thrown in. Results, points and position may be disappointing but the spirit on the team and the potential shown during the good run and in games like Swansea, Leeds and Coventry give me hope for next season. 2 wins and we match last seasons total. If we play like last night we might just sneak a draw in one I'd our away games and we should beat Bristol and Burnley at home. So I can see us at least beating last years points if not league position. COME ON YOU RAMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.