Will we become too predictable?

[Jourdan]

Everyone accepts that the team will improve when Lawrence, Ibe, Jozwiak and Waghorn are in full flow.

But does anyone else wonder if our reliance on our wide players to be our singular threat will actually work against us?

On the one hand, Lawrence’s cameo showed how much we need him, but it also showed how predictable and one dimensional we are in danger of becoming.

Moving forward, I feel teams will set up on the understanding that if you stop Lawrence then you stop us, if you stop Ibe and that’s half the battle won, and if you keep Jozwiak quiet then the threat evaporates totally.

We all know too that players of their type will inevitably have spells when they can be inconsistent, indifferent and even anonymous, so where is the threat going to come from on those days, I wonder?

The thing is, great teams have threats from all angles. So by having quality wingers and attacking full-backs who operate like they do, some elements are actually there for us.

But should those players have an off day or a dip in form, where we are really lacking is in midfield. Such a lack of spark is plain to see.

This became really evident when I watched us against the likes of Brentford, WBA and Leeds last season and similarly with the past two games v Norwich and Watford.

We have midfielders with very specific, almost singular strengths which can prove useful, but on the whole it makes us very easy to play against and as such, we are crying out for some X factor in midfield.

Josh Dasilva is the definition of what we are missing.

[LeedsCityRam]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Everyone accepts that the team will improve when Lawrence, Ibe, Jozwiak and Waghorn are in full flow.

But does anyone else wonder if our reliance on our wide players to be our singular threat will actually work against us?

On the one hand, Lawrence’s cameo showed how much we need him, but it also showed how predictable and one dimensional we are in danger of becoming.

Moving forward, I feel teams will set up on the understanding that if you stop Lawrence then you stop us, if you stop Ibe and that’s half the battle won, and if you keep Jozwiak quiet then the threat evaporates totally.

We all know too that players of their type will inevitably have spells when they can be inconsistent, indifferent and even anonymous, so where is the threat going to come from on those days, I wonder?

The thing is, great teams have threats from all angles. So by having quality wingers and attacking full-backs who operate like they do, some elements are actually there for us.

But should those players have an off day or a dip in form, where we are really lacking is in midfield. Such a lack of spark is plain to see.

This became really evident when I watched us against the likes of Brentford, WBA and Leeds last season and similarly with the past two games v Norwich and Watford.

We have midfielders with very specific, almost singular strengths which can prove useful, but on the whole it makes us very easy to play against and as such, we are crying out for some X factor in midfield.

Josh Dasilva is the definition of what we are missing.

That'll be easier said than done though as under Cocu's ideal system, Lawrence/Jozwiak/Ibe will be highly mobile and not restricted to set positions. Thats incredibly hard to defend & will disrupt overall shape.

I feel another key threat will be through the middle. We've seen little of Knight in the centre because of his versatility but as a central box to box midfielder, he's easily capable of double figures. Same applies to Sibley. With the opposition focus being on stopping our wide men, it will also open up space for the young lads...something they've not had for a while.

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

That'll be easier said than done though as under Cocu's ideal system, Lawrence/Jozwiak/Ibe will be highly mobile and not restricted to set positions. Thats incredibly hard to defend & will disrupt overall shape.

I feel another key threat will be through the middle. We've seen little of Knight in the centre because of his versatility but as a central box to box midfielder, he's easily capable of double figures. Same applies to Sibley. With the opposition focus being on stopping our wide men, it will also open up space for the young lads...something they've not had for a while.

It just struck me last night that a lot of teams will adopt a similar approach - especially the likes of Wycombe, Rotherham and so on - and will challenge us to break them down, and I am not sure we have enough in the tank to successfully do it.

If the likes of Lawrence are not on it, I find it hard to see who from the midfield will stand up and take responsibility.

Like you said, Lawrence, Ibe and Jozwiak will unsettle defences, move them around, commit players, and drag them out of position and hopefully this will lead to chances being created in the main.

Having attacking full backs like Byrne and Buchanan will also stretch teams, we hope.

But what do we do when that doesn’t work? 

I just look at the midfield and I feel we are missing some spark. I see the potential for a lot of industry with Knight, Sibley, Holmes and Shinnie, for example.

Qualities that you can serve you well are there - like the ability for someone to cover ground, someone to make a driving run, someone to play with desire, effort and aggression.

We don’t have anyone in midfield who will pull the strings as such.

You look back at the McClaren team, as an example. Thorne was capable of this. Hughes and Dawkins too. Bryson and Hendrick were there for running the hard yards primarily but also had their moments of quality.

I don’t think it’s solely a Derby problem as such. You could label a lot of Premier League teams with having similar issues being overly reliant on one or two players to make things happen. You see with Everton and Rodriguez and Richarlison. You saw it with Spurs when they had Eriksen. Villa with Grealish.

I am just surprised that no-one at the club has seen it and addressed the issue over the summer. 

We don’t have anyone who can take defences out with a single pass, anyone who can play a killer ball. Someone who demands the ball and who can put teams on the back foot with their passing range.

Generally it’s all very simple, very safe and very easy to anticipate.

[LeedsCityRam]

5 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I just look at the midfield and I feel we are missing some spark. I see the potential for a lot of industry with Knight, Sibley, Holmes and Shinnie, for example.

Qualities that you can serve you well are there - like the ability for someone to cover ground, someone to make a driving run, someone to play with desire, effort and aggression.

We don’t have anyone in midfield who will pull the strings as such.

We don’t have anyone who can take defences out with a single pass, anyone who can play a killer ball. Someone who demands the ball and who can put teams on the back foot with their passing range.

Don't Bielik & Bird solve a lot of these issues?

Bielik is the marauding central midfielder who will drive from deep to start moves & dominate physically. His presence then allows Bird to play slightly further forward, establish a platform higher up the pitch & contribute more to the attacking effort. We saw at Luton (especially his ball through to Jozwiak for the goal) that Max has the ability to thread those killer passes & be comfortable in possession in heavy traffic...vital skills against the lesser lights who will set up deep.

Also think Holmes has a key part to play later on in games stretching the play & skipping away from midfielders. His main issue is a lack of quality further forward but starting deeper, he is better placed to spark a move. Also think Sibley has many of the characteristics you describe above.

Think we're well stocked for midfielders & a good blend of different styles too. The problem up to now has been inability to get the right men in the right positions..especially with Bielik out & injuries in wide areas meaning Knight & Holmes playing out of position.

[G STAR RAM]

Just to get my head around this, is the jist of this thread that if the opponents successfully nullify the threat of our attacking players we will struggle to score?

Is that not the same for every team?

[Jourdan]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Just to get my head around this, is the jist of this thread that if the opponents successfully nullify the threat of our attacking players we will struggle to score?

Is that not the same for every team?

No creativity from midfield, that’s the point.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

No creativity from midfield, that’s the point.

Do you not think Rooney is a creative player?

[Jourdan]

20 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Do you not think Rooney is a creative player?

I think he has moments, for sure.

But I don’t think he will ever get the time or space he needs to.

Also he is no longer where he needs to be in terms of his physical state to follow through with what his brain wants him to do.

Playing midfield in the Championship is by and large a young man’s game. You need to be as fit as a fiddle.

In many ways if you combined Rooney’s technical ability with the physical attributes of a Holmes or a Knight, we’d be laughing all the way to Wembley Way.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

7 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I think he has moments, for sure.

But I don’t think he will ever get the time or space he needs to.

Also he is no longer where he needs to be in terms of his physical state to follow through with what his brain wants him to do.

Playing midfield in the Championship is by and large a young man’s game. You need to be as fit as a fiddle.

In many ways if you combined Rooney’s technical ability with the physical attributes of a Holmes or a Knight, we’d be laughing all the way to Wembley Way.

All we can hope is that Colin is able to fulfill the holdup striker brief well so we can drop Rooney back into the midfield where he belongs and the two of them can replicate what Rooney and Martin were able to do together last season.

Being a number 9 isn't in Rooney play book anymore,he needs another playmaker around him.

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Don't Bielik & Bird solve a lot of these issues?

Bielik is the marauding central midfielder who will drive from deep to start moves & dominate physically. His presence then allows Bird to play slightly further forward, establish a platform higher up the pitch & contribute more to the attacking effort. We saw at Luton (especially his ball through to Jozwiak for the goal) that Max has the ability to thread those killer passes & be comfortable in possession in heavy traffic...vital skills against the

Think we're well stocked for midfielders & a good blend of different styles too. The problem up to now has been inability to get the right men in the right positions..especially with Bielik out & injuries in wide areas meaning Knight & Holmes playing out of position.

Bielik, possibly.

I don’t think we have seen enough of him to reassuredly say what problems he will fix.

He only played 20-odd games last season and a good portion of those were from centre back.

We also don’t know how long it will be before he recovers fully from his injury and looks sharp enough to be relied upon week in, week out.

He could be like a Thorne and offer us that extra dimension. Time will tell.

Holmes is the one who looks to have the attributes to influence a game, but I don’t think he is reliable enough or intelligent enough in his decision making.

He is the kind of player who can run at defences, open up space, create gaps to exploit but he doesn’t have the passing range or the consistency of passing range to see things through to conclusion. He might have 2-3 games where it all clicks, but not with enough regularity to get us where we want to be and that is unfortunate because I think he’s a really likeable player to have.

Bird? I think maybe in 3-4 years he could be that creative force. But if you look at the way he is playing under Cocu and it feels like he is very set and very regimented. Maybe he needs a different coach to let him express himself more and let him off the leash so he believes that he can take games by the horns.

Sibley? Hopefully, but I think we need to see more of him to get a fuller picture. He has had a mixed start to his Rams career. Electric in some games, invisible in others. Much like Bird, maybe it is something he will unwrap with more time and more experience.

[LeedsCityRam]

16 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Bird? I think maybe in 3-4 years he could be that creative force. But if you look at the way he is playing under Cocu and it feels like he is very set and very regimented. Maybe he needs a different coach to let him express himself more and let him off the leash so he believes that he can take games by the horns.

Sibley? Hopefully, but I think we need to see more of him to get a fuller picture. He has had a mixed start to his Rams career. Electric in some games, invisible in others. Much like Bird, maybe it is something he will unwrap with more time and more experience.

Would strongly disagree with this. Firstly, he has already shown some glimpses of a creative presence albeit he's positioned too deep currently - no way would it take that length of time to realise his potential in this division though. More like 3/4 months.

Secondly, he's played deeper because when he came into the side, we had little control of the midfield as well as centre halves who were incapable of playing. Now that all bar Davies can play & Bielik is due to return to the side, that frees up Bird to move forward. I refer to second half at Luton again where Rooney dropped behind him & Bird stepped up - it really suited him.

Sibley's biggest issue has been a lack of alternative threats around him - he's shouldered too big a burden for a lad of his experience but when wingers return, space will start to open up for him again.

[RamLad1884]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

No creativity from midfield, that’s the point.

Bielik, Rooney and perhaps Evans all play a sharp passing game. Sibbo and Knight can all run and take players on. 

Plenty of creativity in that bunch but until our players are back and fit they're all being utilised in the wrong roles.