Inglorius Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bee said: I meant it as a dead rubber for ourselves. We’re not going up, we’re not going down and I can assure you enthusiasm for this game was probably one of the lowest of the season so far as far as Brentford fans were concerned. What does this guy do then when it IS a match of importance and he sees something that upsets him, rip seats out and hurl them at the opposition dugout? You're not doing a very good job of painting this guy in a great light racist behavior or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, Inglorius said: What does this guy do then when it IS a match of importance and he sees something that upsets him, rip seats out and hurl them at the opposition dugout? You're not doing a very good job of painting this guy in a great light racist behavior or not I’ve never seen him do any worse than yesterday, he just gets a bit carried way from time to time and possibly doesn’t always show his passion in the most sensible manner. It’s never threatening or anything like that. As I say, I don’t know him personally so I’m not trying to paint him in any particular light other than the fact I didn’t see nor hear anything remotely racist yesterday, nor have I ever from him in the years I’ve been a season ticket holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCG Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 The problem the way I see it, is that some moronic fans feel it's OK to abuse players. It happens at every match. It should be unacceptable and the police should step in. There's plenty of video evidence to convict these idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 4 hours ago, Bee said: My point of view is not that I didn’t hear anything at all, it’s specifically that I didn’t hear anything racist. I will also add that in a general sense I agree players put up with a lot more grief than they should and I have complete sympathy with them if they react and give it back, however yesterday Holmes was the initiatior of unnecessary and in my opinion unprovoked goading yesterday upon the scoring of your third goal. It’s why subsequent abuse was aimed directly at him and not any other players when we equalised, as it was specifically him that had incited it. Does the Bee stand for Bonucci? What you're doing here is suggesting a player made up that he was racially abused to get one of your fans in trouble. And your evidence for that is because you (just you) didn't hear anything from your seat. Ask yourself why someone, in the age that we live in and the climate we live in, especially after recent incidents, would make such an accusation purely for the sake of getting one of your fans in trouble. Is that really what you want to go with? Makes for uncomfortable reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 A week after the Moise Kean incident, I can't believe I am reading posts from fans of a Championship club trying to excuse racism. - "I didn't hear anything" - "He was goading the fans" - "I know the lad and I know he's not racist" You are cementing yourselves as part of the problem. If someone asks you "If he is found guilty will you still defend him" and your answer is anything other than "no", then you need to have a long hard look at yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Is it possible to make a racist gesture (or event a racist comment) without actually being racist? Asking for a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Carnero said: Is it possible to make a racist gesture (or event a racist comment) without actually being racist? Asking for a friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 33 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said: Does the Bee stand for Bonucci? What you're doing here is suggesting a player made up that he was racially abused to get one of your fans in trouble. And your evidence for that is because you (just you) didn't hear anything from your seat. Ask yourself why someone, in the age that we live in and the climate we live in, especially after recent incidents, would make such an accusation purely for the sake of getting one of your fans in trouble. Is that really what you want to go with? Makes for uncomfortable reading. The irony here is that conversely you’re acting as if Holmes’ complaint alone is evidence enough to have the fan hung, drawn and quartered. I’ve never explicitly called Holmes a liar. As much as I’ve admitted fabrication is one possibility, I’ve also suggested in equal measure that it could just as easily have been something misheard or misunderstood. Again, I’m not at all suggesting this is what has happened here, though maybe spend 5 minutes googling the recent Jussie Smollett case before you so defiantly assume that someone wouldn’t dream of lying about such a thing. The fact that more than one person on this forum now deems a direct eyewitness account as unworthy evidence that should automatically be thrown out is baffling. To compare said honest eyewitness account to the comments made by bonucci is disgraceful and you should be ashamed of yourself for the straws you’ve clutched at in order to make that comparison. I’ve never once said I’d defend him if proven guilty and if you actually read my comments properly you’ll see that if that’s the case, I hope he never sets foot in Griffin Park or our new stadium again. Like you say, makes for uncomfortable reading. I’ll leave it there. Fortunately most of you haven’t forgotten the old adage of innocent until proven guilty, but unsurprisingly a couple of you have already made your minds up. Hopefully the police will do the appropriate investigations and the fan either has his name cleared, or is punished accordingly as he should be if guilty. Good luck in your play-off race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bee said: I’ve never explicitly called Holmes a liar. As much as I’ve admitted fabrication is one possibility, I’ve also suggested in equal measure that it could just as easily have been something misheard or misunderstood. And there's no chance that you yourself haven't misheard or, quite possibly, not heard what Holmes did? You may not have explicitly called him a liar but you've done everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 32 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said: A week after the Moise Kean incident, I can't believe I am reading posts from fans of a Championship club trying to excuse racism. - "I didn't hear anything" - "He was goading the fans" - "I know the lad and I know he's not racist" You are cementing yourselves as part of the problem. If someone asks you "If he is found guilty will you still defend him" and your answer is anything other than "no", then you need to have a long hard look at yourself. Perfectly put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofmidnight Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Reading this thread it would suggest that we have higher expectations of a fan's behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dappled Ram said: Reading this thread it would suggest that we have higher expectations of a fan's behaviour. I do. I expect fans to behave and not abuse people racist or not. What is clear from the Brentford fans posting is that the guy in question is a bit of a moron anyway. I would say if hes known for launching himself down the steps to abuse people then the Brentford stewards should have dealt with him in previous games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 33 minutes ago, Carnero said: Is it possible to make a racist gesture (or event a racist comment) without actually being racist? Asking for a friend. I'd say John Terry is a good example of this. I doubt he is a racist, i think he probably made a racist comment in the heat of the moment. Not excusing it, but I think that is as close as you get to an example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofmidnight Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Totally agree with you Paul71. Such behaviour is totally unacceptable and should be dealt with firmly the first time it happens. Ignoring it just lets the loutish element think it's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Bees Fan said: Difficult one for me, I fear the current climate is screaming out for someone to be charged for this, Sky, the Beeb and the Sun are desperate, I know the guy, I really can't believe and have been told by all that I know from that area of the ground that he didn't. Brentford and the surrounding area is and always has been an area of colour, we had 8 black players starting a game in the early 80s which strangely made the news, it just a natural thing for the club, I've no doubt we have a %, a very small % I hope of racist fans but I really don't think he is one of them. We had Leroy Rosenior as our manager for a few months a few years ago, he was terrible but was a lovely bloke, his autobiography said that he suffered racist abuse at all of his clubs bar us which I was quite proud of, obviously we were part of his latter career when times were changing but I don't think racism is a major issue at GP, I certainly hope not and don't hear anything, I'm at it all game at oppo players and got my customary thumbs up and smile from Keogh yesterday for telling him to hoof the ball and try not to be too clever with it, we've had this relationship for years, anyway I wish you well and hope that this young man's life isn't in tatters as I sincerely believe he hasn't done anything of a racist nature. We will of course have to wait and see. Like i have said I hope its something that has been misunderstood. As I have said in another post the guy is clearly unsavory anyway if he is up and down out of his seat and running down steps to abuse people, it surprises me that the stewards condone it, and even his fellow fans. If someone near me was doing that i am sure the stewards and even fellow fans would be having words with him. Sounds like a situation that could have been avoided had it been nipped in the bud previously. What I don't but, sorry, is the comments about the number of black players you have had. I don't see its relevant in anyway shape of form, Ron Atkinson managed many black players in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Ram Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 I think this guy would be extremely lucky (as in winning the lottery kind of odds) if he’s not on any kind of recorded media. We don’t like to think of it but we can all be picked out in a football crowd. My friends dad was part of a team of plain clothes crowd control filming at Pride Park for quite a few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inglorius Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Bee said: The irony here is that conversely you’re acting as if Holmes’ complaint alone is evidence enough to have the fan hung, drawn and quartered. I’ve never explicitly called Holmes a liar. As much as I’ve admitted fabrication is one possibility, I’ve also suggested in equal measure that it could just as easily have been something misheard or misunderstood. Again, I’m not at all suggesting this is what has happened here, though maybe spend 5 minutes googling the recent Jussie Smollett case before you so defiantly assume that someone wouldn’t dream of lying about such a thing. The fact that more than one person on this forum now deems a direct eyewitness account as unworthy evidence that should automatically be thrown out is baffling. To compare said honest eyewitness account to the comments made by bonucci is disgraceful and you should be ashamed of yourself for the straws you’ve clutched at in order to make that comparison. I’ve never once said I’d defend him if proven guilty and if you actually read my comments properly you’ll see that if that’s the case, I hope he never sets foot in Griffin Park or our new stadium again. Like you say, makes for uncomfortable reading. I’ll leave it there. Fortunately most of you haven’t forgotten the old adage of innocent until proven guilty, but unsurprisingly a couple of you have already made your minds up. Hopefully the police will do the appropriate investigations and the fan either has his name cleared, or is punished accordingly as he should be if guilty. Good luck in your play-off race. The truth often lies somewhere in between. Better to leave it to the CPS then if applicable the judiciary to determine innocence or guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R@M Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 4 hours ago, Ramarena said: Not sure on your last sentences, surely If he has confessed then he would be awaiting a court date at the Mags, not being refered to the CPS for judgement? The CRown Prosecution Service still have to take the case to court, to prosecute, even with a confession. If you are also talking about the police referral to the CPS, they have to jump through hoops to send it on and the info I posted was almost word for word, or what I can remember from legal textbooks. I agree about letting the CPS deal with it now, but there is clearly some evidence (other than just Holmes)for it to get that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 5 hours ago, AlfonzoBurlonzo said: How on EARTH does that further your opinion. You said you didn't HEAR anything, a gesture is not something you can hear. You have no proof to disbelieve that there was not a gesture as you don't have 6,000 eyeballs up in that head of yours. You even said previously that there was a lot of Brentford fans gesticulating at Holmes, who are you to say that one of them wasn't a monkey gesture? Now get off the forum with your speculative thoughts which have absolutely no basis and go and join the disgrace that are the Brentford forums. He does. He's a bee. Clue's in the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 6 hours ago, i-Ram said: I think Paul you need to read his post again if that is your interpretation. Seems a well measured piece, as have all his posts. I think you are probably infuriated by some of the idiotic posting on the Brentford Forum. I haven’t looked at that personally, but can imagine it to be a lot more partisan than Bee’s reflections. Yes, some of the quotes on their forum are a bit ridiculous. The Brentford fans who have come on here have been entirely reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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