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Let's talk tactics


RiddingsRam
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Been thinking g of tarting a tactic based thread for a while now . Now I'm a bit of a nerds when it comes to studying the tactical side of a game and how it's won or lost and I fear many of you are the same way inclined. I've put this in football talk but feel it will come very heavily Rams related so mods feel free to move if you want too .

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Firstly regarding our 4-3-3 system and why I think it went wrong against leeds. 

Heavily reliable on full backs getting forward creating the width , neither Baird or Hanson do this and as daft as it sounds we lost the game from being too defensive. 

We need the holding midfielder to control the game and dictate the tempo unfortunately de sart didn't do this tonight , there were glimpses but the player in that role needs to demand the ball and demand he dictates the game . 

My third point from this particular game and shape is the wide forward players , with the ball they need to be cutting in and causing problems , Camara wanted to hug the touchline and I'm afraid you can't do this in our 4 3 3 . 

Anyway my deluded thoughts , probably complete ******** but feel free to add .

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And again replying to my own thread ,( I know:wub:) but with the current players we have at our disposal would 4 2 3 1 not suit us better.  Not to compromise on the passing game but surely our current 3 strikers would thrive off having someone playing just behind them (Will). And when Thornes back future were over run with defensively minded midfielders . This would also allow for less attacking full backs . 

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2 hours ago, RiddingsRam said:

Firstly regarding our 4-3-3 system and why I think it went wrong against leeds. 

Heavily reliable on full backs getting forward creating the width , neither Baird or Hanson do this and as daft as it sounds we lost the game from being too defensive. 

We need the holding midfielder to control the game and dictate the tempo unfortunately de sart didn't do this tonight , there were glimpses but the player in that role needs to demand the ball and demand he dictates the game . 

My third point from this particular game and shape is the wide forward players , with the ball they need to be cutting in and causing problems , Camara wanted to hug the touchline and I'm afraid you can't do this in our 4 3 3 . 

Anyway my deluded thoughts , probably complete ******** but feel free to add .

With a McClaren 4-3-3 for me the key is that one player is regularly making runs towards in behind roughly in line with the 18 yard line going towards the byline, one wide of the full-back and one deeper with both but in line with the former player. 

On the left this used to be Fozzy (wide of the full-back), Bryso (in behind) and Dawks (deeper) and on the other side (Russell/Ward in behind, Wisdom (wide) and Willberforce (deeper). 

As long as you're controlling games then that's all you need to recreate. It's why our right hand side when George replaced Eustace which allows us to play an additional runner in Jeff.

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32 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Of the current squad,

De Start and Johnson would be the two.

Hughes further forward, flanked by Ince and your pick, bent/nuge up front.

Don't think it'd particularly be better than 4-3-3

With Dr Start and Thorne perhaps, but with GT the 4-3-3 ticks.

Will we ever see a full flowing George Thorne again though ?

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On 13/01/2017 at 22:35, RiddingsRam said:

Firstly regarding our 4-3-3 system and why I think it went wrong against leeds. 

Heavily reliable on full backs getting forward creating the width , neither Baird or Hanson do this and as daft as it sounds we lost the game from being too defensive. 

We need the holding midfielder to control the game and dictate the tempo unfortunately de sart didn't do this tonight , there were glimpses but the player in that role needs to demand the ball and demand he dictates the game . 

My third point from this particular game and shape is the wide forward players , with the ball they need to be cutting in and causing problems , Camara wanted to hug the touchline and I'm afraid you can't do this in our 4 3 3 . 

Anyway my deluded thoughts , probably complete ******** but feel free to add .

I think it all links back to point 1. The full backs are key. 

Everything was very down the middle because the full backs weren't providing the width. The ball kept just coming straight back out to us because there was no outlet out wide.  De sart would have had more time and space if we had our marauding full backs. 

When the ball did get it to the wide men, camara's only option was down the touchline. He tried cutting inside a few times and just ran into a wall of Leeds players because the full back wasn't running to take away that extra defender.

It wasnt as evident down the right because ince is better at making that space for himself and had more support from baird. Plus, as evident in previous games, these 2 seem to compliment each others styles.

I think that with the current full backs, we should be playing 4-2-3-1. Once we get Lowe or Ollson back, revert back to 4-3-3.

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I know it's currently "in fashion " to play a 3 4 3 . But would it suit us ? We've got the 3 quality centre halves. Would take less emphasis off not having the correct style of striker.  And would sort the problem of currently having no fit full backs . With the current players available . We could line up something like this 

                        Carson 

        Keogh    Pearce    shackell 

Russell    de Sart   Hughes   Elsnik 

        Ince                     Vydra 

                    Nugent 

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I've always thought the game isn't so much about tactics and formations as it is about players and whether their good enough..

However, modern football seems to be becoming more and more about tactics...the Man U-Liverpool match was all about tactics; Liverpool's pressing game stifling United until Mourinho throws Fellini on and goes long etc  

McLaren's 4-3-3 clearly suits this side whereas Pearson's 4-4-2 didn't.. problem we got now is players like Vydra were signed to suit the later and key players were sold or loaned out (Hendrick, Martin) because they suited the former.

Makes you wonder where we'd be now if McLaren's head hadn't been turned by Newcastle first time around..

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19 hours ago, RiddingsRam said:

I know it's currently "in fashion " to play a 3 4 3 . But would it suit us ? We've got the 3 quality centre halves. Would take less emphasis off not having the correct style of striker.  And would sort the problem of currently having no fit full backs . With the current players available . We could line up something like this 

                        Carson 

        Keogh    Pearce    shackell 

Russell    de Sart   Hughes   Elsnik 

        Ince                     Vydra 

                    Nugent 

Under mac1 we lined up 433 but during play one of 2 things usually happened

1, Mac liked to split the cbs so we could advance both fbs,  with the cdm dropping in to provide cover in the centre if needed. Thus creating a 343 

2. One of the fbs would really bomb far forward  (usually fozzy) and one hang back with the defence shuffling across to make a 343 or even 334.

So we were pretty much on trend. 

Of course we need the right personnel.  I'd say that at present we lack the players to execute 1. We don't have 2 ball playing cbs like we did with keogh and bucko. And we don't have George.  We have a bit more chance of 2 if we can get an attacking fb back.

If we get Christie and forsythe back fit then I could see us wanting to be able to switch using scenario 1. But we still need that Buxton upgrade to partner keogh plus a proper natural cdm - I wouldn't be convinced by converting Bradley. 

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