Heysel

[Sith Happens]

8 hours ago, sage said:

They simply aren't guilty of manslaughter. Again I'm not condoning their behaviour. However they did not fight with anyone who died. They could have been prosecuted for assault or violent disorder.

However a civil prosecution for damages along the lines of unlawful killing may have been successful.   

Morning, some liverpool fans were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

I do get your points that violence had been happening at many football grounds by many sets of supporters, and yes of course anytime that happened it could have escalated as it did at heysel, and something worse could have happened, i am sure many times people were found gulty of offences relating to their actions during this time, and continue to do so no doubt when violence breaks out. Rightly so, i dont condone any violence or criminal act towards another person.

The point I make, and stand by, is that only liverpool fans are guilty for their actions that night, they chose to commit the crime and offences of the past are irrelevant.

Another example i would use, one which does happen, is lets say i go out on a saturday, get boozed up and for whatever reason decided to beat someone up....scenario 1 that person gets a bloodied nose...i get caught, i get charged with something like abh/gbh, however in scenario 2 that person takes a fall, bangs his head on the pavement and dies, i get charged with something more serious such as manslaughter. In scenario 2 i cannot use as a defence that the person in scenario 1 commited no less a crime and i was just unlucky. Each time someone, or a group of people, choose to commit a crime whatever it is, be it speeding, throwing a brick of a bridge, attacking people at football, only they and they alone are guilty of that particular action and crime and no one else.

[Sexydadbod]

15 hours ago, Paul71 said:

No it was a segment of the liverpool fans fault, you hear very little about heysel, in fact try and talk to a liverpool fan about it and they wont have it, yet get onto the subject of hillsborough they are totally different.

Whilst both are absolute tragedies i would argue Heysel was far worse in the way of culpability as the Liverpool fans acted with genuine malice and intent to harm, whilst they may not have intended to kill they intended harm by charging and attacking the juventus fans. Whilst what has happened at Hillsborough was tragic too, and people have clearly lied and tried to cover up i cannot believe anyone set out with the intent of harm, it was a series of horrendous errors which led to it occuring.

I also believe Liverpool as a club offered very little in the way of an apology until more recent years for what happened.

It is easy to understand in retrospect why so many people believed at the time that Liverpool fans were in someway responsible for hillsborough.

Absolutely correct. Liverpool as a club didn't properly accept responsibility for Heysel till around 10 years ago. In fact they tried to blame it on everyone else, they even tried to blame it on Chelsea fans at one point. Hillsborough was of course a disaster but as you said they try to dismiss Heysel. I had a social media argument with a Liverpool fan on this topic and ironically he blamed Heysel on the police authorities rather than Liverpool fans.  

[bigbadbob]

15 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Absolutely correct. Liverpool as a club didn't properly accept responsibility for Heysel till around 10 years ago. In fact they tried to blame it on everyone else, they even tried to blame it on Chelsea fans at one point. Hillsborough was of course a disaster but as you said they try to dismiss Heysel. I had a social media argument with a Liverpool fan on this topic and ironically he blamed Heysel on the police authorities rather than Liverpool fans.  

First rule of scousers, it's never their fault

[davenportram]

2 hours ago, McLovin said:

Absolutely correct. Liverpool as a club didn't properly accept responsibility for Heysel till around 10 years ago. In fact they tried to blame it on everyone else, they even tried to blame it on Chelsea fans at one point. Hillsborough was of course a disaster but as you said they try to dismiss Heysel. I had a social media argument with a Liverpool fan on this topic and ironically he blamed Heysel on the police authorities rather than Liverpool fans.  

the police authorities were found culpable by an investigation, along with the Liverpool fans.

[MuespachRam]

I have many good friends who are Juventus supporters who knew people that went to Heysel and never came back. They have never had any "justice" for the murder of the 39. It was brushed under the carpet far too easily by all the authorities involved by banning Emglish clubs from Europe they somehow fought this was adequate...!?? 

I get the points made about it could have happened to other clubs but it didn't-it was Liverpool supporters that killed those fans no one else is to blame at all. They have never took responsibility for it at all and should hang their heads in shame at this. 

How many other situations could occur where the murder of 39 people is just brushed aside.?

[davenportram]

31 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

I have many good friends who are Juventus supporters who knew people that went to Heysel and never came back. They have never had any "justice" for the murder of the 39. It was brushed under the carpet far too easily by all the authorities involved by banning Emglish clubs from Europe they somehow fought this was adequate...!?? 

I get the points made about it could have happened to other clubs but it didn't-it was Liverpool supporters that killed those fans no one else is to blame at all. They have never took responsibility for it at all and should hang their heads in shame at this. 

How many other situations could occur where the murder of 39 people is just brushed aside.?

murder is premeditated act.

[ladyram]

I wonder if people had still died if that wall hadn't collapsed? 

If you think yes, why? 

RIP the 39. 

[Mick Harford]

I have been very vocal in my support and defence of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough.

On the other side, whilst I appreciate that there were other factors in play at Heysel, I feel that the conduct of Liverpool fans at Heysel was disgusting. I understand that it could have been any set of fans back then, but the silence by the club and fans afterwards was as terrible in as much that the fight by the Hillsborough families was admirable.

Shame on both the club and us English fans back then.

[Mick Harford]

Jesus yes, sorry. A terrible typo.

[davenportram]

6 minutes ago, Mick Harford said:

Jesus yes, sorry. A terrible typo.

edited

[Mick Harford]

Cheers mate.

[IlsonDerby]

6 hours ago, davenportram said:

murder is premeditated act.

Murder/Manslaughter doesn't really matter in the case of this argument. They both involve the unlawful taking of another's life. All you're suggesting by bringing this point up is that somebody who plans to kill someone is worse than somebody who doesn't plan on killing somebody. In which case that is a different argument entirely for another time and another day. 

[davenportram]

2 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Murder/Manslaughter doesn't really matter in the case of this argument. They both involve the unlawful taking of another's life. All you're suggesting by bringing this point up is that somebody who plans to kill someone is worse than somebody who doesn't plan on killing somebody. In which case that is a different argument entirely for another time and another day. 

ones an intentional act the other isn't. Liverpool fans that day did not commit murder and it is wrong to call them murderers.

[IlsonDerby]

5 minutes ago, davenportram said:

ones an intentional act the other isn't. Liverpool fans that day did not commit murder and it is wrong to call them murderers.

Should we call them Manslaughterers? 

I think the majority of violence at football is pre meditated... 

End of the day the fans who charged towards the Juve fans are SCUM. I don't care that they're Liverpool fans, it could have been any team and I'd feel the same. I hope those who charged still cannot sleep properly at night. I hope the images of those poor 39 losing their lives haunts the fans who charged until their dying days. Nothing short of what they deserve - premeditated or not. 

[davenportram]

16 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Should we call them Manslaughterers? 

I think the majority of violence at football is pre meditated... 

End of the day the fans who charged towards the Juve fans are SCUM. I don't care that they're Liverpool fans, it could have been any team and I'd feel the same. I hope those who charged still cannot sleep properly at night. I hope the images of those poor 39 losing their lives haunts the fans who charged until their dying days. Nothing short of what they deserve - premeditated or not. 

how about lay the blame rightfully at their door and don't call them murderers because that's not true.

[GboroRam]

46 minutes ago, davenportram said:

how about lay the blame rightfully at their door and don't call them murderers because that's not true.

Would everybody be happy to agree they are killers? Football violence is disgraceful and anyone involved risked the same. Those involved at heysel are indeed scum.

[Archie]

9 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

I have many good friends who are Juventus supporters who knew people that went to Heysel and never came back. They have never had any "justice" for the murder of the 39. It was brushed under the carpet far too easily by all the authorities involved by banning Emglish clubs from Europe they somehow fought this was adequate...!?? 

I get the points made about it could have happened to other clubs but it didn't-it was Liverpool supporters that killed those fans no one else is to blame at all. They have never took responsibility for it at all and should hang their heads in shame at this. 

How many other situations could occur where the murder of 39 people is just brushed aside.?

Hillsborough would have been one of them if it wasn't for the families of the victims seeking 'justice'. The establishment was more than happy to do that.

[IlsonDerby]

12 hours ago, davenportram said:

how about lay the blame rightfully at their door and don't call them murderers because that's not true.

I'm sorry but when 39 people are killed I don't care if the wrong term is used. Man slaughter makes it sound like an accident. They all had a choice to make and they made that choice not considering the consequences (I can only hope they didn't consider the consequences)

[ladyram]

What I didnt realise is how much bad blood there was between these two sets of supporters and football hooliganism was nearly always in the news in the  80's.

http://bianconeri.tripod.com/heysel.html

Not sure how accurate this is, if its not, then please say so. Just trying to understand where all the hate began. 

*******if you read it, it's not at all pleasant*******

 

[ladyram]

I disagree. The charge is what caused the wall to collapse, if they hadn't have charged, it wouldn't have happened. Plus you can't expect Juventus fans not involved in the fighting to stay put, of course they're going to run!