Heysel

[sage]

4 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

you were totally right on Heysel and consequently DCFC not playing in Europe that was totally the fault of Liverpool fans, the other one, is defintley not so cut and dry.

I would suggest that Heysel was the fault of every football hooligan in the 70s and 80s as well as the ground authorities.

It could have happened to us or for any team that had a 'firm' in those times.

[Sith Happens]

24 minutes ago, sage said:

I would suggest that Heysel was the fault of every football hooligan in the 70s and 80s as well as the ground authorities.

It could have happened to us or for any team that had a 'firm' in those times.

No it was a segment of the liverpool fans fault, you hear very little about heysel, in fact try and talk to a liverpool fan about it and they wont have it, yet get onto the subject of hillsborough they are totally different.

Whilst both are absolute tragedies i would argue Heysel was far worse in the way of culpability as the Liverpool fans acted with genuine malice and intent to harm, whilst they may not have intended to kill they intended harm by charging and attacking the juventus fans. Whilst what has happened at Hillsborough was tragic too, and people have clearly lied and tried to cover up i cannot believe anyone set out with the intent of harm, it was a series of horrendous errors which led to it occuring.

I also believe Liverpool as a club offered very little in the way of an apology until more recent years for what happened.

It is easy to understand in retrospect why so many people believed at the time that Liverpool fans were in someway responsible for hillsborough.

[MuespachRam]

 

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

No it was a segment of the liverpool fans fault, you hear very little about heysel, in fact try and talk to a liverpool fan about it and they wont have it, yet get onto the subject of hillsborough they are totally different.

Whilst both are absolute tragedies i would argue Heysel was far worse in the way of culpability as the Liverpool fans acted with genuine malice and intent to harm, whilst they may not have intended to kill they intended harm by charging and attacking the juventus fans. Whilst what has happened at Hillsborough was tragic too, and people have clearly lied and tried to cover up i cannot believe anyone set out with the intent of harm, it was a series of horrendous errors which led to it occuring.

I also believe Liverpool as a club offered very little in the way of an apology until more recent years for what happened.

It is easy to understand in retrospect why so many people believed at the time that Liverpool fans were in someway responsible for hillsborough.

Perfectly put.

[sage]

3 hours ago, Paul71 said:

No it was a segment of the liverpool fans fault, you hear very little about heysel, in fact try and talk to a liverpool fan about it and they wont have it, yet get onto the subject of hillsborough they are totally different.

Whilst both are absolute tragedies i would argue Heysel was far worse in the way of culpability as the Liverpool fans acted with genuine malice and intent to harm, whilst they may not have intended to kill they intended harm by charging and attacking the juventus fans. Whilst what has happened at Hillsborough was tragic too, and people have clearly lied and tried to cover up i cannot believe anyone set out with the intent of harm, it was a series of horrendous errors which led to it occuring.

I also believe Liverpool as a club offered very little in the way of an apology until more recent years for what happened.

It is easy to understand in retrospect why so many people believed at the time that Liverpool fans were in someway responsible for hillsborough.

You fail to understand my point. The behaviour of the Liverpool that night was no worse than many team's fans behaved in that era and the 20 years previously. If you isolate the wall falling down from the actual violence, I have seen similar fighting/hooliganism a dozen times over the years. Add poor security and a dilapidated stadium and you had a perfect storm. 

'Hark now hear the Derby sing, the Forest ran away and we shall fight forever more because of Boxing Day'.

It's hypocritical to sing that song, regale in tales of running fans back to the train station and get misty eyed at tales of Popside scuffles then suggest that Liverpool fans are somehow more villainous, evil or guilty than the ICF, Zulu Army or DLF. 

[Sith Happens]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

You fail to understand my point. The behaviour of the Liverpool that night was no worse than many team's fans behaved in that era and the 20 years previously. If you isolate the wall falling down from the actual violence, I have seen similar fighting/hooliganism a dozen times over the years. Add poor security and a dilapidated stadium and you had a perfect storm. 

'Hark now hear the Derby sing, the Forest ran away and we shall fight forever more because of Boxing Day'.

It's hypocritical to sing that song, regale in tales of running fans back to the train station and get misty eyed at tales of Popside scuffles then suggest that Liverpool fans are somehow more villainous, evil or guilty than the ICF, Zulu Army or DLF. 

I don't at all, trying to suggest behaviour is acceptable because others have done the same or worse in the past is not acceptable. Its like saying someone who is jailed because they killed someone as a result of dangerous driving as they were speeding should be exonerated because lots of others speed.

[Gritstone Ram]

10 minutes ago, sage said:

You fail to understand my point. The behaviour of the Liverpool that night was no worse than many team's fans behaved in that era and the 20 years previously. If you isolate the wall falling down from the actual violence, I have seen similar fighting/hooliganism a dozen times over the years. Add poor security and a dilapidated stadium and you had a perfect storm. 

'Hark now hear the Derby sing, the Forest ran away and we shall fight forever more because of Boxing Day'.

It's hypocritical to sing that song, regale in tales of running fans back to the train station and get misty eyed at tales of Popside scuffles then suggest that Liverpool fans are somehow more villainous, evil or guilty than the ICF, Zulu Army or DLF. 

Or you'll get you f****** head kicked in while you walk down shaftesbury street. I saw many a Leeds fan get kicked from one end to the other.

[sage]

16 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I don't at all, trying to suggest behaviour is acceptable because others have done the same or worse in the past is not acceptable. Its like saying someone who is jailed because they killed someone as a result of dangerous driving as they were speeding should be exonerated because lots of others speed.

Well yes you do misunderstand my point. 

Firstly would you like to point out where I said their behaviour was acceptable.

Secondly I would suggest a more accurate fable to illustrate my point would be someone who regularly speeds slagging off someone who killed someone by driving too quickly.

[Sith Happens]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

Well yes you do misunderstand my point. 

Firstly would you like to point out where I said their behaviour was acceptable.

Secondly I would suggest a more accurate fable to illustrate my point would be someone who regularly speeds slagging off someone who killed someone by driving too quickly.

I read your post as justifying their behaviour as others have done the same. 

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I read your post as justifying their behaviour as others have done the same. 

Which part gave you that impression as I'm baffled. 

I'm suggesting that the hooliganism was an accident waiting to happen. A little drink driving. I was a kid at games in the late 70s and early 80s and was terrified at times by what happened around me. I have no nostalgia for that side of the game.

[Sith Happens]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

Which part gave you that impression as I'm baffled. 

I'm suggesting that the hooliganism was an accident waiting to happen. A little drink driving. I was a kid at games in the late 70s and early 80s and was terrified at times by what happened around me. I have no nostalgia for that side of the game.

I do not disagree that things were bad, however I read your post to say everyone involved in hooliganism was responsible for what happened, it is not, only those that night who decided to attack others are responsible and no one else.

[MuespachRam]

5 minutes ago, sage said:

Which part gave you that impression as I'm baffled. 

I'm suggesting that the hooliganism was an accident waiting to happen. A little drink driving. I was a kid at games in the late 70s and early 80s and was terrified at times by what happened around me. I have no nostalgia for that side of the game.

But Heysel wasn't an accident, and accident suggests it wasn't anyone's fault, the Liverpool fans deliberately charged at the Juventus fans to cause them harm and ended up murdering 39 of them and then never took responsibility for it, never admitted guilt and never looked for any sort of justice for them...

[sage]

1 minute ago, Paul71 said:

I do not disagree that things were bad, however I read your post to say everyone involved in hooliganism was responsible for what happened, it is not, only those that night who decided to attack others are responsible and no one else.

Hmmm

So you and your mates take it in turns to throw a brick off a motorway bridge on Sunday mornings. One person each Sunday.

A few months down the line you throw one and it goes threw a car window and kills someone.

Are you the only guilty one? 

[Sith Happens]

Just now, sage said:

Hmmm

So you and your mates take it in turns to throw a brick off a motorway bridge on Sunday mornings. One person each Sunday.

A few months down the line you throw one and it goes threw a car window and kills someone.

Are you the only guilty one? 

Yes, you have to take responsibility for your own actions not the actions of others

[sage]

4 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

But Heysel wasn't an accident, and accident suggests it wasn't anyone's fault, the Liverpool fans deliberately charged at the Juventus fans to cause them harm and ended up murdering 39 of them and then never took responsibility for it, never admitted guilt and never looked for any sort of justice for them...

As you will deliberately misinterpret and cherry pick every post on this thread to suit your own bigoted agenda I won't bother debating the matter with you.

My point has been clearly made to Paul71. 

[sage]

2 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Yes, you have to take responsibility for your own actions not the actions of others

I was suggesting you concentrate on the word 'only'.

What you all did was equally wrong. Fate meant that only one of you directly killed someone. However morally all your actions were equally wrong. 

Again I'm suggesting a greater guilt not mitigating circumstances.

[Sith Happens]

1 minute ago, sage said:

I was suggesting you concentrate on the word 'only'.

What you all did was equally wrong. Fate meant that only one of you directly killed someone. However morally all your actions were equally wrong. 

Again I'm suggesting a greater guilt not mitigating circumstances.

I don't condone any of it, and yes of course there could of been worse consequences each and every time, but the Liverpool fans that night made their own decisions and attacked others, people died. I would like to believe that in a civilised world that yes confrontation happens but if its clear that people are in trouble you stop, they clearly did not. 

[sage]

6 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I don't condone any of it, and yes of course there could of been worse consequences each and every time, but the Liverpool fans that night made their own decisions and attacked others, people died. I would like to believe that in a civilised world that yes confrontation happens but if its clear that people are in trouble you stop, they clearly did not. 

This is what happened according to Wikipedia.

Approximately 1 hour before the Juventus-Liverpool final was due to kick off, violence erupted with Juventus fans pelting Liverpool supporters with missiles in the terraces. In response, Liverpool supporters charged at them and breached a fence that was separating them from a "neutral area" [3]. Juventus fans ran back on the terraces and away from the threat into a concrete retaining wall. Fans already standing near the wall were crushed; eventually the wall collapsed. Many people climbed over to safety, but many others died or were badly injured. 

As I said I'm not absolving anyone of guilt. 

[GboroRam]

11 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I don't condone any of it, and yes of course there could of been worse consequences each and every time, but the Liverpool fans that night made their own decisions and attacked others, people died. I would like to believe that in a civilised world that yes confrontation happens but if its clear that people are in trouble you stop, they clearly did not. 

So a bit of hooliganism is acceptable then? As long as you stop short of killing someone? Derby hooligans were fine but Liverpool ones should be strung up?

I think I understand. 

[Sith Happens]

1 minute ago, sage said:

This is what happened according to Wikipedia.

Approximately 1 hour before the Juventus-Liverpool final was due to kick off, violence erupted with Juventus fans pelting Liverpool supporters with missiles in the terraces. In response, Liverpool supporters charged at them and breached a fence that was separating them from a "neutral area" [3]. Juventus fans ran back on the terraces and away from the threat into a concrete retaining wall. Fans already standing near the wall were crushed; eventually the wall collapsed. Many people climbed over to safety, but many others died or were badly injured. 

As I said I'm not absolving anyone of guilt. 

I think the trouble started well before then, there was some sort of friendly played beforehand which was abandoned due to behaviour of fans. I don't disagree that the behaviour of football hooligans was abhorrent, but when you commit a crime you and only you are responsible.

[sage]

1 minute ago, Paul71 said:

I think the trouble started well before then, there was some sort of friendly played beforehand which was abandoned due to behaviour of fans. I don't disagree that the behaviour of football hooligans was abhorrent, but when you commit a crime you and only you are responsible.

That's the whole point. So many have committed the same crime.