British and Irish Lions

[DCFCfranco]

The lions won the final test 16-41 and the series 2-1

[LeedsCityRam]

By the way what is your understanding of a sport being played nationally?? Is it to have a pro team in all counties or is to actually to have clubs in all counties giving people the opportunity to play, all be it at amateur level..if it is the former then neither sport is national...if it is the latter then both sports are played throughout England & Ireland...as their is now no county that does not have at least one RL club..

 

Yep all good fun, living in Leeds working alongside plenty of League fans, I love the union/league banter thing. Also, apologies in advance for the lengthy reply!!

 

Yeah you're right re Catalans - their rise & support levels have been impressive, particularly as Perpignan is a significant Union strong-hold. Bit confused by the Toulouse suggestion though - didn't they have a SL team a few years back which disbanded due to financial reasons (I would assume a lack of support would underpin that?)

 

I definitely wouldn't class Sale as a token club - they've been around since 1865!!!! They also won the title less than 10 years ago (should declare an interest here as I am a Sale fan!) London Broncos only started in 1980 & have re-named so many times, I'm not sure if they are the same club as the original - would they honestly survive if Super League didn't keep throwing money at it? That would be my definition of a token club, as local support enough wouldn't be enough to sustain it. I don't think club rugby has a high presence up north but Sale & Newcastle do survive on their support which in Sale's case (circa 8000 average over last 5 years) is comparable with over half of Super League clubs - on their own "patch"

 

Salford's new backing is interesting but not sure how long Koukash will pour money in when they're getting sub-5000 crowds. Also, he recently came out & said he's looking at buying a football club...bit ominous. I would also argue that Union always has had a presence in the North - its just not reflected at an elite club level to a large extent. Player participation in the North is high - hence the amount of quality Northern lads who have played for England RU side. League have never had a significant club presence south of Wakey really.

 

Re the TV viewing figures point - I don't think you're comparing apples with apples. Union at club level is played throughout winter where it competes for viewing figures with football - which of course utterly dominates UK sport. League at club level is played throughout summer with virtually no competition for viewers - I think Sky (& its viewers) are just grateful to have some kind of meaningful sport on the telly!!! And of course, Six Nations will attract massive TV numbers - which is why some of the games have been moved to Sat night primetime slot

 

Re the Australia situation - you'll probably know this better than me but aren't the Super 15 games well attended in Aus? I know there's very little structure beneath that but even Queensland Reds (in prime League country) still appear to get decent crowds whenever I catch the games on telly.

 

Re final point about sport played nationally - its very difficult to define exactly but I would say a good geographical spread of professional clubs, with a decent player participation at amateur level & a well supported national team with a reasonably high media profile. Union I think does fit this criteria in Eng, Wales & Ireland, I don't think League truly does in England & definitely doesn't in Wales & Ireland.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Keith Wood

[ladyram]

The lions rock. Goodnight.

[sheeponacid]

Yep all good fun, living in Leeds working alongside plenty of League fans, I love the union/league banter thing. Also, apologies in advance for the lengthy reply!!

 

Yeah you're right re Catalans - their rise & support levels have been impressive, particularly as Perpignan is a significant Union strong-hold. Bit confused by the Toulouse suggestion though - didn't they have a SL team a few years back which disbanded due to financial reasons (I would assume a lack of support would underpin that?)

 

I definitely wouldn't class Sale as a token club - they've been around since 1865!!!! They also won the title less than 10 years ago (should declare an interest here as I am a Sale fan!) London Broncos only started in 1980 & have re-named so many times, I'm not sure if they are the same club as the original - would they honestly survive if Super League didn't keep throwing money at it? That would be my definition of a token club, as local support enough wouldn't be enough to sustain it. I don't think club rugby has a high presence up north but Sale & Newcastle do survive on their support which in Sale's case (circa 8000 average over last 5 years) is comparable with over half of Super League clubs - on their own "patch"

 

Salford's new backing is interesting but not sure how long Koukash will pour money in when they're getting sub-5000 crowds. Also, he recently came out & said he's looking at buying a football club...bit ominous. I would also argue that Union always has had a presence in the North - its just not reflected at an elite club level to a large extent. Player participation in the North is high - hence the amount of quality Northern lads who have played for England RU side. League have never had a significant club presence south of Wakey really.

 

Re the TV viewing figures point - I don't think you're comparing apples with apples. Union at club level is played throughout winter where it competes for viewing figures with football - which of course utterly dominates UK sport. League at club level is played throughout summer with virtually no competition for viewers - I think Sky (& its viewers) are just grateful to have some kind of meaningful sport on the telly!!! And of course, Six Nations will attract massive TV numbers - which is why some of the games have been moved to Sat night primetime slot

 

Re the Australia situation - you'll probably know this better than me but aren't the Super 15 games well attended in Aus? I know there's very little structure beneath that but even Queensland Reds (in prime League country) still appear to get decent crowds whenever I catch the games on telly.

 

Re final point about sport played nationally - its very difficult to define exactly but I would say a good geographical spread of professional clubs, with a decent player participation at amateur level & a well supported national team with a reasonably high media profile. Union I think does fit this criteria in Eng, Wales & Ireland, I don't think League truly does in England & definitely doesn't in Wales & Ireland.

Its a day to be a union fan mate & a Brit...but here's my latest response (also a long winded)

 

Regarding the Toulouse club...no never has there been a team in Super league although its muted with the new TV deal in France for RL that this is going to happen....hence the attendance of almost 15000 a couple of weeks ago being an interesting figure in my opinion..

 

Yes Sale have been around for a long time & I do credit much of their increased support on some decent seasons, including the title win...many neutrals flock to a winning team...hence my statement that it will be interesting to see how Salford go under Dr K should he bring success..

 

I think it would also be interesting if the Broncos could actually achieve some success year on year instead of being cellar dwellers, it is so much easier to support a team that are riding high, which is why the super Rams gates increase when their doing well..I really believe it is pretty dire that the RFL have not assisted the Broncos more...a view not always held in the heartlands by some fans...The RFL throwing money at them, give over, its a myth peddled by lets stick to the M62 Luddites, the owner of the Broncos bank rolls them...as I say above its about time they did get their hands in their pockets though..

 

The viewing figures I mentioned were taken for games played, were the seasons over lapped (at the end of the union season & the start of the RL season) so, both codes were up against the football juggernaut, so I think that the apples are pretty much the same..Internationally I'd say yes the Union games are extremely well attended, but their viewing figures on sky are no better than the RL tri nations (will try to get the figures for this weekend Lions game & the Warrington v Leeds game)...but I do accept that union internationals are also often getting aired on terrestrial TV...Also Unions national media coverage is better than Leagues.. 

 

The Reds & the Brumbies attendances are relatively good this year, but only the Brumbies are consistent season on season (I take note of them due to my being a Canberra fan), just look at the Warratahs attendances now their not enjoying success...the others are well iffy, with the Perth & Melbourne franchises pretty much always struggling financially....Viewing figures wise there were only half a dozen union games that made the top 100 most watched sporting events in Aus, with the charts dominated by Aussie rules & RL (state of origin taking the top three places I think)..

 

Sponsorship over their is pretty much a role reversal of here, but with League/Aussie Rules being the premier league football as opposed to our union, & union being pretty much our league...Newspapers are dominated by League in NSW, Queensland & by Aussie Rules in the rest of the country..I think if you look at League v Union figures across the Tasmin... that you may well be a little shocked with the inroads being made into the ultimate union backyard...A second franchise in Wellington is well supported & trial games have had better attendances than super 15 games played their..

 

I'm glad you enjoy banter with the League boys in Leeds, I have nobody down here to really banter with, because nobody really gives a stuff about either code (just look at the amount of people responding to a lions tour on here mate, think we have taken about half of the space) & that is why I say to you is Union really a national game, doesn't seem like it in Derbyshire...

 

Enjoy the egg chasing & the Rams

[sheeponacid]

Damn forgot to add that their are over 200 open age RL sides south of Sheffield, probably more now, & their are more & more southern boys making the step up to full time league...Of course there are Northern boys playing union for England they were probably honed on league as juniors & therefore taught not to just kick the ball...but to run & pass it, a skill alien to most southern union players (just baiting there  )

[davenportram]

Damn forgot to add that their are over 200 open age RL sides south of Sheffield, probably more now, & their are more & more southern boys making the step up to full time league...Of course there are Northern boys playing union for England they were probably honed on league as juniors & therefore taught not to just kick the ball...but to run & pass it, a skill alien to most southern union players (just baiting there )

Going back a few years there were lots more access to union than league in the north. Being from the North originally I know that most schools play union and there is a much bigger emphasis on kids rugby within the union code.

The theory that those northerners playing union for England were weaned on League is garbage. You can't learn the intricacies of scrummaging and forward play in the open from league. Probably why you hardly ever see a forward transfer between codes.

[froggg]

Superb performance from the lions B)

[LeedsCityRam]

Damn forgot to add that their are over 200 open age RL sides south of Sheffield, probably more now, & their are more & more southern boys making the step up to full time league...Of course there are Northern boys playing union for England they were probably honed on league as juniors & therefore taught not to just kick the ball...but to run & pass it, a skill alien to most southern union players (just baiting there  )

 

Haha touche, you've obviously not watched much super league recently....5 attempts to run through a defensive line stopped by the first oppo tackler, kick to corner (usually dropped) & repeat ad infinitum

 

Seriously though, northern rugby fans tend to appreciate both union & league - we've seen plenty of Warrington & Wigan fans down at Sale & I see plenty of England RU rugby tops up north - plenty of Six Nations interest in Leeds for example - an absolute League stronghold. Our respective knowledge of each other's code would seem to back that up too.

 

Fair enough re NRL - I have heard it is making some waves in NZ & obviously Sonny Bill has gone back now to RL. I would still say that at the pinnacle of the game, both Aus & NZ players will make a real effort to associate with union - look how Wendell Sailor & Lote Tuiquri made the move from League to Union in time for '03 RWC. Same with Mat Rogers.

 

Re Toulouse - I was thinking of Paris, my bad. It will be interesting to see if SL open another franchise in south of France like you say as Catalans has been a success.

 

Re Derbyshire - well its just one of those counties where football dominates. Which is probably why we all love the Rams because football means so much to the city. Its one of the few counties with no rugby interest - maybe Tyneside is another but Newcastle Falcons were a reasonably big deal up there until 2003/4.

 

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your Rugby League World Cup in Oct - been giving the folk here a bit of stick as the final still isn't sold out yet. I'll be interested to see the crowds at the respective games - guess we can have another conversation then about how the Great British public have responded to top class international league on their doorstep!

[LeedsCityRam]

 

 

The Reds & the Brumbies attendances are relatively good this year, but only the Brumbies are consistent season on season (I take note of them due to my being a Canberra fan), just look at the Warratahs attendances now their not enjoying success...the others are well iffy, with the Perth & Melbourne franchises pretty much always struggling financially....Viewing figures wise there were only half a dozen union games that made the top 100 most watched sporting events in Aus, with the charts dominated by Aussie rules & RL (state of origin taking the top three places I think)..

 

Sponsorship over their is pretty much a role reversal of here, but with League/Aussie Rules being the premier league football as opposed to our union, & union being pretty much our league...Newspapers are dominated by League in NSW, Queensland & by Aussie Rules in the rest of the country..I think if you look at League v Union figures across the Tasmin... that you may well be a little shocked with the inroads being made into the ultimate union backyard...A second franchise in Wellington is well supported & trial games have had better attendances than super 15 games played their..

 

 

Just spotted this - average crowds from 2012 in Aus, league average (including state of origin games) 18,030, union average 19,769......not bad for a minority sport

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Australian_football_code_crowds

[sheeponacid]

Just spotted this - average crowds from 2012 in Aus, league average (including state of origin games) 18,030, union average 19,769......not bad for a minority sport

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Australian_football_code_crowds

Wondered if you might throw that fact in...but look at the total numbers through the gates , along with player participation, tv ratings, media coverage, sponsorship etc.....Not to mention they pay you to watch union over there, & count pets taken along (just kidding)..

 

Look forward to continuing our debates during the RL World cup & by the way I am not a union hating league fan, I do really appreciate both egg chasing codes, just have preference for league...Will keep an eye out for Sales results this coming season

[RodleyRam]

Wondered if you might throw that fact in...but look at the total numbers through the gates , along with player participation, tv ratings, media coverage, sponsorship etc.....Not to mention they pay you to watch union over there, & count pets taken along (just kidding)..

 

Look forward to continuing our debates during the RL World cup & by the way I am not a union hating league fan, I do really appreciate both egg chasing codes, just have preference for league...Will keep an eye out for Sales results this coming season

 

Just catching up on your League/Union debate and thought I'd throw in a third party as no-one esle seems to give a fook about Rugby on here!

 

Only really to say that I think it'll be interesting to see how the RFL's change of the amateur season to the summer effects numbers outside of the M62 corridor heartlands. I guess cricket and tennis will still dominate most people's summer sporting activities but it could lead to Union clubs bringing league clubs into existence for their players to do something over the summer months. More people playing the sport could easily lead to more people watching and subsequently League could become bigger across the whole country. That might take a fair while to come to fruition but it'll be interesting to see if it makes any real difference to the popularity.

 

For what it's worth I'm much more of a Union fan in terms of the actual game playing and watching, I think Union has got a little bit more boring in recent times with scrums becoming uncontested and line-out throws more crooked than Robert Maxwell but for me I think Union has more about it because you can contest the ball at the break-down and the game seems to flow a bit more easily on the eye. I'm probably a bit biased because I played Union as a kid and therefore can see the patterns and engage in the debate a bit more.

 

I think League has a really good approach to youth involvement and community, and I think sports like Football could learn an awful lot from that. Some of the engagement projects in League are absolutely fantastic and by having a bit more of an open door policy with the community I think clubs see a knock on effect to the gate receipts and supporter involvement. As I understand it though a lot of SL clubs are experiencing major financial problems and the RFL have their work cut out trying to get major sponsorship deals through the door. It will be interesting to see what effect the World Cup has on improving the situation and raising the profile wider.

[eddie]

The removal of the effective segregation between the codes was the salvation of Union, especially when some of the top league players 'crossed over'. Until then, it was a sub-standard game being totally consumed by its insular 'amateurism'.

 

A couple of key days in the lead-up were of course the 1996 'clash of the codes' (Bath beat Wigan 44-19 at Union before Wigan utterly slaughtered them 82-6 at the 13 man game), and of course the day that Wigan were invited to take part in the Middlesex Sevens - and steamrollered everyone. 

 

The import of Andy Tait, Jason Robinson, Henry Paul, Iestin Harris etc basically saved Union.

[LeedsCityRam]

 

For what it's worth I'm much more of a Union fan in terms of the actual game playing and watching, I think Union has got a little bit more boring in recent times with scrums becoming uncontested and line-out throws more crooked than Robert Maxwell but for me I think Union has more about it because you can contest the ball at the break-down and the game seems to flow a bit more easily on the eye. I'm probably a bit biased because I played Union as a kid and therefore can see the patterns and engage in the debate a bit more.

 

I think League has a really good approach to youth involvement and community, and I think sports like Football could learn an awful lot from that. Some of the engagement projects in League are absolutely fantastic and by having a bit more of an open door policy with the community I think clubs see a knock on effect to the gate receipts and supporter involvement. As I understand it though a lot of SL clubs are experiencing major financial problems and the RFL have their work cut out trying to get major sponsorship deals through the door. It will be interesting to see what effect the World Cup has on improving the situation and raising the profile wider.

 

Good post. Much though I love Union, the scrums do need sorting - too many overly-subjective penalties (massive variation in SH & NH referee interpretation) & the feed is an absolute joke. I think the Southern hemisphere style is the way forward, less focus on scrum nuances, more focus on creative free flowing rugby  - Super 15 games are an excellent watch & make some NH games look positively pedestrian.

 

I too am interested to see how the RL World Cup is received - dunno about you but I've not seen much fanfare around Leeds as yet, still 3 months off though I suppose..

 

 

 

The import of Andy Tait, Jason Robinson, Henry Paul, Iestin Harris etc basically saved Union.

 

Who's Andy Tait? Also, I'm not sure you can reasonably say League's influence "saved" union...although I will concede that in England, it has undoubtedly benefitted from some of the talent both playing & coaching that has switched over. All swings & roundabouts though - League practically hoovered up Union talent in late 80's & early 90's.

 

The biggest saviour for Union was the abolition of the ridiculous notion of non-competition - i.e. no World Cup, no domestic league (in England) & no professionalism. Once those three got sorted, the game has started to grow.

[eddie]

Good post. Much though I love Union, the scrums do need sorting - too many overly-subjective penalties (massive variation in SH & NH referee interpretation) & the feed is an absolute joke. I think the Southern hemisphere style is the way forward, less focus on scrum nuances, more focus on creative free flowing rugby  - Super 15 games are an excellent watch & make some NH games look positively pedestrian.

 

I too am interested to see how the RL World Cup is received - dunno about you but I've not seen much fanfare around Leeds as yet, still 3 months off though I suppose..

 

 

 

Who's Andy Tait? Also, I'm not sure you can reasonably say League's influence "saved" union...although I will concede that in England, it has undoubtedly benefitted from some of the talent both playing & coaching that has switched over. All swings & roundabouts though - League practically hoovered up Union talent in late 80's & early 90's.

 

The biggest saviour for Union was the abolition of the ridiculous notion of non-competition - i.e. no World Cup, no domestic league (in England) & no professionalism. Once those three got sorted, the game has started to grow.

 

Sorry, the memory gives out on occasion. Alan Tait. Very good centre with Widnes and Leeds. I think he may have been the first to go from League to Union. He had previously gone the other way (sweety).

 

Regarding hoovering up Union's talent, it had happened for more than a hundred years - and the first Rugby Union World Cup preceded Tait, Robinson etc switching from League by a decade. Players couldn't move the other way until Union embraced professionalism, because by default anyone who played league was banned from union sine die.

[LeedsCityRam]

Sorry, the memory gives out on occasion. Alan Tait. Very good centre with Widnes and Leeds. I think he may have been the first to go from League to Union. He had previously gone the other way (sweety).

 

Regarding hoovering up Union's talent, it had happened for more than a hundred years - and the first Rugby Union World Cup preceded Tait, Robinson etc switching from League by a decade. Players couldn't move the other way until Union embraced professionalism, because by default anyone who played league was banned from union sine die.

 

Ah yes, Alan Tait - good player, scored a winning try for the Lions in 1997 from memory.

 

Yes a ridiculous ban, thankfully consigned to history - it had turned into a flow come the late 80's though, no wonder Wales were so bad come the early 90's with Davies, Gibbs, Quinnell et al moving to League

[davenportram]

Ah yes, Alan Tait - good player, scored a winning try for the Lions in 1997 from memory.

Yes a ridiculous ban, thankfully consigned to history - it had turned into a flow come the late 80's though, no wonder Wales were so bad come the early 90's with Davies, Gibbs, Quinnell et al moving to League

There is a painting at twickenham of an early match of Union. In that painting there were some players painted out after they switched codes (as the story goes) but their outline stayed as ghostly silhouettes haunting the sport.

[RodleyRam]

Good post. Much though I love Union, the scrums do need sorting - too many overly-subjective penalties (massive variation in SH & NH referee interpretation) & the feed is an absolute joke. I think the Southern hemisphere style is the way forward, less focus on scrum nuances, more focus on creative free flowing rugby  - Super 15 games are an excellent watch & make some NH games look positively pedestrian.

 

I too am interested to see how the RL World Cup is received - dunno about you but I've not seen much fanfare around Leeds as yet, still 3 months off though I suppose..

 

The scrums are a joke, I feel for the officials a bit because it's tough to see who's at fault most of the time but for me it's pretty simple, cut out the illegal binding, feed the ball in straight and just get on with it. I think sides are encouraged to break up the scrums because there's a big chance of an easy penalty.

 

Agree with you regarding NH vs SH. England c.2002-3 had a cracking blend of all that was great about NH and SH rugby. Batering ram forwards, great offloads and angles, a decent set of backs who could move the ball and a reliable goal kicker. NH rugby now focusses too greatly on keeping things tight, not conceding tries and point accumulation throug penalties. It can be effective for winning matches but it takes a hell of a lot of the spectacle out of it! For the last few years I've felt a little flat about the six nations, there's been the odd team that's stood out as bring some more fluid running rugby to the fore but they've invariably been dragged down to the sterile kind of game that we've seen in the northern hemisphere for the last few years.

 

There's too much emphasis on killing the ball at the breakdown and looking for easy penalties. I don't know what the answer is but the NH rugby I've seen lately has been awfully disjointed and has lost a lot of what makes it appealing for me.

 

I don't get to watch a great deal of club rugby but the stuff I have seen has some flashes of attractive play but typicall it's pretty attritional stuff!

 

And back onto League, I've seen very little about and I work in the sports industry. I think the RFL have struggled a bit in the last year, they had a fairly sizeable cut in their Sport England funding because of not hitting participation targets and the financial problems of the super league have been well documented. For me the World Cup is a huge opportunity for them and for the sake of the game I hope that they can capitalise, I have my doubts as to whether they'll be able to create enough buzz about it outside of their traditional market.

 

Time will tell.

[LeedsCityRam]

There is a painting at twickenham of an early match of Union. In that painting there were some players painted out after they switched codes (as the story goes) but their outline stayed as ghostly silhouettes haunting the sport.

 

Shockingly petty but not that surprising for the RFU. Their petulant sanction handed out to Will Carling after his "56 old farts" comment being another example.

 

The scrums are a joke, I feel for the officials a bit because it's tough to see who's at fault most of the time but for me it's pretty simple, cut out the illegal binding, feed the ball in straight and just get on with it. I think sides are encouraged to break up the scrums because there's a big chance of an easy penalty.

 

Agree with you regarding NH vs SH. England c.2002-3 had a cracking blend of all that was great about NH and SH rugby. Batering ram forwards, great offloads and angles, a decent set of backs who could move the ball and a reliable goal kicker. NH rugby now focusses too greatly on keeping things tight, not conceding tries and point accumulation throug penalties. It can be effective for winning matches but it takes a hell of a lot of the spectacle out of it! For the last few years I've felt a little flat about the six nations, there's been the odd team that's stood out as bring some more fluid running rugby to the fore but they've invariably been dragged down to the sterile kind of game that we've seen in the northern hemisphere for the last few years.

 

There's too much emphasis on killing the ball at the breakdown and looking for easy penalties. I don't know what the answer is but the NH rugby I've seen lately has been awfully disjointed and has lost a lot of what makes it appealing for me.

 

 

Totally agree - funnily enough Wales are particular bad for this (bearing in mind their historical accusations of England playing boring rugby) - the Scotland v Wales 6N match this season was one of the worst games of rugby I've ever seen. Clear playing for the penalty & very little flair or imagination, just constant crashball.

 

In my opinion, some of the problems could be sorted by 1) making scrums form before the shove comes in, not hitting as at present, 2) make obvious killing the ball offences in your own 22 an automatic yellow card punishment, 3) scrum penalties punishable by free kick not penalty unless in opponents 22 & 4) ban kickable penalties from beyond 10 yards inside your opponents half - i.e. encourage tap & go or kick to the corner for an attacking lineout.

[RodleyRam]

Shockingly petty but not that surprising for the RFU. Their petulant sanction handed out to Will Carling after his "56 old farts" comment being another example.

 

 

Totally agree - funnily enough Wales are particular bad for this (bearing in mind their historical accusations of England playing boring rugby) - the Scotland v Wales 6N match this season was one of the worst games of rugby I've ever seen. Clear playing for the penalty & very little flair or imagination, just constant crashball.

 

In my opinion, some of the problems could be sorted by 1) making scrums form before the shove comes in, not hitting as at present, 2) make obvious killing the ball offences in your own 22 an automatic yellow card punishment, 3) scrum penalties punishable by free kick not penalty unless in opponents 22 & 4) ban kickable penalties from beyond 10 yards inside your opponents half - i.e. encourage tap & go or kick to the corner for an attacking lineout.

 

Wouldn't disagree with any of those suggestions really, only to say that I think there are too many bloody rules already! I think personally they need to get back to basics with it, stamp out blatant negative unfair play with automatic yellows as you suggest but ultimately, let the game flow a bit more. It's gone the way of football a little bit in recent times with the referees being too involved. I agree with you on the peno distance rule, it used to be impressive when someone would kick for goal from the half way line but now it's just boring, I really dislike games where no-one gets close to the try line but the score is 21 -15 or whatever.