In His 4 Years, Clough Has Delivered On All Fronts

[Albert]

Okay, so I'll do this the same way you did.

Firstly, that's you opinion so don't bang on about being factual.

Secondly, just because I didn't use a direct quote from a paper, or website, don't write it off as irrelevant.

Thirdly, more opinion. Again your statement about me not using facts is unjustified.

I'll do this in numbered points:

1. Wrong, it is a fact that since coming down we're sold 3 strikers for more than we bought Sammon for.

2. You made a statement, back it or prepare to have it questioned

3. I've previous posted the methods in my analysis and we are indeed in a position where the playoffs are still a real possibility. In late December based on league position and the last 10 years of Championship results, we had around a 1 in 3 chance of making the playoffs. So again, that's not an opinion and is backed by something.

If you look at my two previous posts in this thread, where I refer to significant investment, I'm recalling the past 18 months where clearly investment in the first team has piqued and has been linked to greater ambitions. I make no mention of the first two seasons of his tenure because clearly the outlook was different at that time.

The reason we are having this whole debate is because different people have different perceptions about the expectations placed on Clough throughout his time here. I think we can all agree the expectations were fairly modest in the beginning which tied in with the transitional period the club was going through.

But in summer 2011, in my view, there was a definite gear change. It was the first transfer window where Clough had a positive net spend and didn't have to sell to generate funds and clearly this was the time where progress was expected to accelerate, given the fine margins in the division. In the past 18 months, he has had autonomy in the transfer market. He has been able to build his team. But still we can't sustain a challenge for promotion. In the first two seasons, you could most definitely legislate for that, but how about now?

As for one manager in similar circumstances who has done better. It's difficult to quantify but I'll give it a go. Sean Dyche with Watford last season. They finished 11th, their highest league finish for four years, at a time when they sold four key players in Buckley, Sordell, Graham and Cowie and had to rely on Academy products and loan signings to make up the bulk of their squad. That was his first season in his first managerial job in professional football no less.

I am sure I'm not alone in thinking why can't Clough get more out of his players, when managers like Dyche at Watford and Jackett at Millwall on similarly modest resources have managed to?

You keep saying "significant investment". Summer 2011 was a moderate investment at best, to use your own phrasing and put bluntly we still can't see the full effect of the money spent due to injuries to Barker. Money spent is one thing, not having our captain put out for a season is another all together.

You keep making odd comparisons. Dyche didn't have to slash his wage bill, he did lose a couple of key players, but ultimately he inherited a squad that were midtable and with some key additions (after some key sales) finished midtable (above us on goals scored if I recall). There is a massive difference between being on a short leash financially and needing to slash the wages of the club.

This all said, you are right in saying that we did spend more and had a more positive outlook after summer 2011. We also had a much more positive season, finishing 12th up from 19th, this despite losing our best striker in Hulse during the summer.

[networker1884]

I'll do this in numbered points:

1. Wrong, it is a fact that since coming down we're sold 3 strikers for more than we bought Sammon for.

2. You made a statement, back it or prepare to have it questioned

3. I've previous posted the methods in my analysis and we are indeed in a position where the playoffs are still a real possibility. In late December based on league position and the last 10 years of Championship results, we had around a 1 in 3 chance of making the playoffs. So again, that's not an opinion and is backed by something.

I'll do this in numbered points:

1. Wrong, you said "a striker at this level £1.2 mil is not big money"- that is your opinion.

2. You never questioned my statement, you completely wrote it off as a lie.

3. What, so I've got to go through all your previous posts and analyse them before I reply to your comment? I'm not looking for an argument, and I certainly

[Gary Teale]

We talk like we had the biggest wage bill ever, like no other team the has come down has had to cut there costs. Many a team has done that while staying in the championship. We had the smallest wage bill by a long way in the prem so it's not been as hard as some clubs have found it. Boro for example have got rid of how many players since relegation and are cutting there wage bill down.

[Albert]

I'll do this in numbered points:

1. Wrong, you said "a striker at this level £1.2 mil is not big money"- that is your opinion.

2. You never questioned my statement, you completely wrote it off as a lie.

3. What, so I've got to go through all your previous posts and analyse them before I reply to your comment? I'm not looking for an argument, and I certainly

Ah... trying to quote out of context to make it seem like you have a leg to stand on. Classy classy stuff!

1. Wrong, I said:

Firstly, for a striker at this level £1.2 mil is not "big money". Since coming back down we've sold 3 strikers for considerably over that amount.

The key part is the following part which backs what I said with a very solid facts. I could go into averages goals per value at this level etc, but I feel that alone highlights the point I was making well. It was no just "opinion".

2. I never wrote it off as a lie, I never used the word "lie" and put bluntly I fail to see why you haven't tried to source your claim if you feel so strongly about it.

3. I directly said: "Speaking from a statistical point of view, coming into January this season, we were in the best position we've been under Clough (or Jewell for that matter) playoffs wise." Now, either you assumed that I was just making things up as I went along or that was a hint that it was based off something more solid. I would have been more than happy to give you a proper explanation of it if you wished, but instead you passed something that was clearly not simply "opinion" for no particularly good reason.

[Albert]

We talk like we had the biggest wage bill ever, like no other team the has come down has had to cut there costs. Many a team has done that while staying in the championship. We had the smallest wage bill by a long way in the prem so it's not been as hard as some clubs have found it. Boro for example have got rid of how many players since relegation and are cutting there wage bill down.

If I recall (hopefully someone can either correct me here or explain this further), the issue was that we borrowed against the parachute payments to finance moves for Davis, Miller, Earnshaw etc. Basically, unlike many other clubs coming down we didn't have that extra security and when the club spent like mad following relegation with Jewell, we left ourselves in a mess that could have easily seen us in financial strife a division below.

[networker1884]

Ah... trying to quote out of context to make it seem like you have a leg to stand on. Classy classy stuff!

1. Wrong, I said:

The key part is the following part which backs what I said with a very solid facts. I could go into averages goals per value at this level etc, but I feel that alone highlights the point I was making well. It was no just "opinion".

2. I never wrote it off as a lie, I never used the word "lie" and put bluntly I fail to see why you haven't tried to source your claim if you feel so strongly about it.

3. I directly said: "Speaking from a statistical point of view, coming into January this season, we were in the best position we've been under Clough (or Jewell for that matter) playoffs wise." Now, either you assumed that I was just making things up as I went along or that was a hint that it was based off something more solid. I would have been more than happy to give you a proper explanation of it if you wished, but instead you passed something that was clearly not simply "opinion" for no particularly good reason.

You're like a less intelligent version of Bris, that's why this isn't interesting me. But, one last thing before I leave you to annoy someone else, you quoted yourself out of context on the first point, so I made up for that by quoting the opinionated part of your post, that is all. Enjoy x

[Albert]

You're like a less intelligent version of Bris, that's why this isn't interesting me. But, one last thing before I leave you to annoy someone else, you quoted yourself out of context on the first point, so I made up for that by quoting the opinionated part of your post, that is all. Enjoy x

...and there we go, you feel annoyed so you go for the personal insults. Congratulations! That is some classy stuff. What's your next move, insulting my mother?

How did I quote myself out of context on the first post? You can't call something opinion when it is clearly backed by something directly before or after it. Analysis and summation is an important part of getting information across, but if you wish I could address you with nothing but facts and let you figure it out from there.

[ChaddesdenRam]

I think you are right Albert we could have very easily gone down and then we would be in the same position as say charlton.

[networker1884]

...and there we go, you feel annoyed so you go for the personal insults. Congratulations! That is some classy stuff. What's your next move, insulting my mother?

How did I quote myself out of context on the first post? You can't call something opinion when it is clearly backed by something directly before or after it. Analysis and summation is an important part of getting information across, but if you wish I could address you with nothing but facts and let you figure it out from there.

Maaan, I really don't care! Stop taking it so seriously. I'm going to watch Lord of the Rings.

[ramblur]

If I recall (hopefully someone can either correct me here or explain this further), the issue was that we borrowed against the parachute payments to finance moves for Davis, Miller, Earnshaw etc. Basically, unlike many other clubs coming down we didn't have that extra security and when the club spent like mad following relegation with Jewell, we left ourselves in a mess that could have easily seen us in financial strife a division below.

Albert,I've explained this further countless times and from every conceivable angle,which all draw the same conclusion.I'd agree with your last point though,with the addition of Jan 08 spending.

[Guest]

I'll do this in numbered points:

1. Wrong, you said "a striker at this level £1.2 mil is not big money"- that is your opinion.

2. You never questioned my statement, you completely wrote it off as a lie.

3. What, so I've got to go through all your previous posts and analyse them before I reply to your comment? I'm not looking for an argument, and I certainly

Agree 1.2m is a lot of money, and based upon what I have seen to date, way over the odds.

I base this on seeing him play, I dont need any facts, graphs, spreadsheets or anything else to aid my opinion.

Add into the mix that 1.2m is around 30-40% of our total spend this year, it is a lot of dough for a player IMO has not performed to a level I hoped for based on the fee involved.

Shame Clough didnt get woods, who would have probably been allowed to go for less if we had got him before his success at Milwall.

[eddie]

You're like a less intelligent version of Bris, that's why this isn't interesting me. But, one last thing before I leave you to annoy someone else, you quoted yourself out of context on the first point, so I made up for that by quoting the opinionated part of your post, that is all. Enjoy x

Can we just call you 'Dick' for short?

'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

[bcnram]

I think you are right Albert we could have very easily gone down and then we would be in the same position as say charlton.

Or Sheffield United

[bcnram]

We talk like we had the biggest wage bill ever, like no other team the has come down has had to cut there costs. Many a team has done that while staying in the championship. We had the smallest wage bill by a long way in the prem so it's not been as hard as some clubs have found it. Boro for example have got rid of how many players since relegation and are cutting there wage bill down.

Weren't they bankrolled significantly by Steve Gibson to ease the pain until it got too painful for him. Re; Clough, the issue has not just been reducing the cost of wages, it has been moving players out for whom there was little demand and juggling players coming in with very little in the way of resource.

[BOB BIGGS]

.

For me, at this stage, I just think Clough could be doing a better job. But it would be interesting to see what you think is a reasonable timeframe for competing for promotion...

Just my pennies worth on the last bit. I'd say 2014/15 season.

[bcnram]

That's the beauty of independent thought.

We all comprehend a situation in different ways. You say we were in free fall, I say we were simply underachieving to the ludicrously high standards Jewell had set. Jewell set the target of an instant return to the Premier League, not the fans. After spending five seasons in the Championship after our previous relegation in 2002, I think most if not all fans had the sense to realise that it would be anything but straightforward.

We were finding it difficult back in the Championship no doubt but I don't think our Championship status was truly in danger otherwise a much more experienced manager would have been appointed. Jewell didn't resign because we were doomed for relegation or in free fall but because he had failed to deliver on his rather lofty aims.

Free-fall to me is the kind of situation you had at Norwich where even a managerial change in January couldn't save them, the kind of situation Southampton found themselves in with administration, points deductions and an inevitable relegation. We were in the semi-finals of a domestic cup competition and in Clough's first ten league games, we picked up 17 points. So clearly the squad he inherited wasn't altogether useless. Underachieving? Yes. Expensive? Yes. Bloated? Yes. Doomed? No.

Fair enough if you want to take the informed opinions of people in football as gospel, but forgive some of us if we want to make our own minds up and reach our own conclusions. After all, even the most respected and accomplished people in football can get it wrong.

For me, at this stage, I just think Clough could be doing a better job. But it would be interesting to see what you think is a reasonable timeframe for competing for promotion...

Maybe free-fall was too strong 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> but there is no doubt that there was an air of despondency around the club that Jewell could not fix because he and his preprocessor had left us with a bunch of highly paid, uncommitted average players. I think that we were very much in danger of relegation that season but to answer your last point, I do find it difficult to put a timeframe on it as we are building in a different way to other clubs. The majority of our investments have been in very young players looking to the future. The only two 'meaty' sums have been for a centre half and centre forward which is probably correct. We are losing away games to goals that have come from mistakes by in the main young players who lack the nous that lesser but more experienced players may have. I think that by the end of this this season I feel we should be within touching distance of the top six. Clearly there are positions that still need to be strengthened and we all have a view on which ones they are, but budgets are budgets!!!

[curb]

I guess he's got plenty of time left out of his so-called 10 year plan to get us competing in the play-offs.

Wake me up when he's gone.

[networker1884]

Can we just call you 'Dick' for short?

'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

You can...but only you.

[Gary Teale]

Weren't they bankrolled significantly by Steve Gibson to ease the pain until it got too painful for him. Re; Clough, the issue has not just been reducing the cost of wages, it has been moving players out for whom there was little demand and juggling players coming in with very little in the way of resource.

No since they have come down they have been slashing there wage bill as you call it, I work with a boro fan when I try that excuse about us. They have brought youngsters into the team with a few cheap signings.

[ramblur]

No since they have come down they have been slashing there wage bill as you call it, I work with a boro fan when I try that excuse about us. They have brought youngsters into the team with a few cheap signings.

Wouldn't call Jutkiewicz cheap!