In His 4 Years, Clough Has Delivered On All Fronts

[Asanovic]

Wonder how much Mowbray's on.

[Guest]

If you're looking at the performances I'm surprised you have no confidence at all. I think most would agree there's a significant improvement in the quality of the playing staff, which has then resulted in improved performances.

Yes ive seen the improvements,but is that us improving or poorer teams in the league ?

We are still 12th, which is mid table, even with the improved performances, come next season I still believe we will hang around 8-16th all season, and the one after that etc.....Im not doubting that he hasnt improved us playing wise, but in 4 years under his charge i would have hoped he would have, but throughout that tenure i dont think i can recall once where I have ever thought we were challenging for top 6, and imo i dont think we will be under his leadership.

I hope that Im proved wrong as he isnt going anywhere, and with crowds falling, only two meaningful matches a season, the season effectively over in Feb and people pinning their hopes on the next year as being the one, I need some hope :-)

[Asanovic]

Yes ive seen the improvements,but is that us improving or poorer teams in the league ?

We are still 12th, which is mid table, even with the improved performances, come next season I still believe we will hang around 8-16th all season, and the one after that etc.....Im not doubting that he hasnt improved us playing wise, but in 4 years under his charge i would have hoped he would have, but throughout that tenure i dont think i can recall once where I have ever thought we were challenging for top 6, and imo i dont think we will be under his leadership.

I hope that Im proved wrong as he isnt going anywhere, and with crowds falling, only two meaningful matches a season, the season effectively over in Feb and people pinning their hopes on the next year as being the one, I need some hope :-)

Fair comments.

I think it's difficult to have dramatically improved us in four years when such a large chunk of that time was spent offloading players and bringing in younger, less experienced (and in some cases, inadequate) replacements. Things take time - just ask Paul Lambert.

My one criticism of NC would be how long it's taken for him to learn to buy well. He does fairly consistently good business these days, but it hasn't always been the case and signing lightweight players like Pringle weren't what we needed at that time.

[ramblur]

Fair comments.

I think it's difficult to have dramatically improved us in four years when such a large chunk of that time was spent offloading players and bringing in younger, less experienced (and in some cases, inadequate) replacements. Things take time - just ask Paul Lambert.

My one criticism of NC would be how long it's taken for him to learn to buy well. He does fairly consistently good business these days, but it hasn't always been the case and signing lightweight players like Pringle weren't what we needed at that time.

Pringle might not have been what we needed at the time,but did he have the money at the time to do differently? The likes of him and Bucko were virtually shots to nothing.

[Asanovic]

Pringle might not have been what we needed at the time,but did he have the money at the time to do differently? The likes of him and Bucko were virtually shots to nothing.

Again, fair comment. I guess we'll never know how much he had to play with, and maybe he wouldn't as good in the market now without those experiences.

[curb]

Pringle might not have been what we needed at the time,but did he have the money at the time to do differently? The likes of him and Bucko were virtually shots to nothing.

Yet GSE have spent £50m plus the tv money and a parachute payment, and not all in the first year either, the investment was staggered. I'm not for one minute saying they've done anything dodgy, but the money that has been put in doesn't correlate with the standard of players we've seen. Odd.

[ramblur]

Yet GSE have spent £50m plus the tv money and a parachute payment, and not all in the first year either, the investment was staggered. I'm not for one minute saying they've done anything dodgy, but the money that has been put in doesn't correlate with the standard of players we've seen. Odd.

£16m of that relates to the purchase of the club,and I can't comment on the £50m till it appears in the accounts (not saying it's wrong).In August 08 AP was already saying that we were a few million over budget and later went on to say that even that budget (not the 'over budget') would have to be trimmed should we fail to gain promotion that year.Of course,he subsequently found that you can't just ditch players without their consent,so the problems rumbled on,with some having to be paid off.As well as the loan dealt with by the first chute payment,there was probably about another £5m to be repaid to get the external debt down to the long term £15.5m,ignoring the 'revolving loan'.There's strong evidence that the latter had been in force years earlier,but it's impossible (for me) to work out quantum in earlier years,because it would have been buried within a global total.

If we've savaged the wage bill and still can't break even,then it's not hard to see that in past years large deficits would have needed financing.On the players side,although a fair bit was spent in Jan 08,it's very likely that amounts would still have been outstanding in 08/09 (this is why I've always specified net CASH spend for Jan 08 in my analysis).You've then got to add the 08/09 deals and probably more in terms of spending since than many think (I now think sales were more disappointing than most thought).

Just goes to show how easy it is to p**s a large amount of cash away(as the late Nigel Doughty found out).

GSE wouldn't have had the Prem tv money to spend,just the surplus it helped create (probably nearer £10m after taking into account other measures, including a slight debt reduction from the £31m).

[curb]

I reckon they came into it totally oblivious of what it actually takes to run an English football club, never mind one that has just been relegated from the Prem, with the investment levels they obviously expected it to take us straight back up.

I feel sorry for them in some ways, but not enough to forgive them for the **** we've seen over the last 5 years.

[davenportram]

I reckon they came into it totally oblivious of what it actually takes to run an English football club, never mind one that has just been relegated from the Prem, with the investment levels they obviously expected it to take us straight back up.

I feel sorry for them in some ways, but not enough to forgive them for the **** we've seen over the last 5 years.

Possibly blinded by a sales pitch by Pearson.

wonder if Forests owners are learning the same lesson?

[ramblur]

Possibly blinded by a sales pitch by Pearson.

wonder if Forests owners are learning the same lesson?

I'd blame a lot of it on Pearson,as well as Jewell,but if Pearson was correct in saying the owners wanted to make an impact in respect of the Jan 08 signings,and that Jewell would have preferred to spend in the summer,then they too aren't blameless.

I cringed (because of the type of players,in the main,that were coming in) when AP said that you had to run a certain level of wages to compete at the top in the Championship.Statistics on wages generally back him up (though the correlation isn't so good on fees),but you do rather have to ensure you're signing players worth the wages being offered.

I agree with curb on the sympathy for the owners,but I restrict this to the non management investors (in 07/08 and summer 08/09).They have no doubt done exactly what was asked of them at the outset and can't be blamed (imo) for what ensued.

I do even wonder if the appointments to the board (which came when it would have been obvious things weren't going to plan) were investor driven.However,I do realise that some investors came on board later than others,but it was noticeable that investors other than Appleby didn't feature at the outset,when there were plenty of them around (add Glick to that,as we don't know when he invested).