G STAR RAM Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 The players' wage bill for 08/09 was reported in the DET at £15.5m,and given in quotation marks.The equivalent figure for 07/08 was given at £23m (including employers' NIC,otherwise the figure would have been nearly £26m,which was the total wage bill).The 19 players I referred to earlier (ranging from Sav to Porter) all had to feature within this figure,hence the LOG's Prem remnants simply couldn't have been a massive problem,especially when there's over £15m of residual chute payments to play with.No one forced them to sign 19 players. In any event,if there were no GSE then there'd have been no Savage,Tito,Sterjowski and Carroll,which would have been a great start to slashing that £15.5m So, if all the players from pre GSE had been on 3 year contracts say, would this have been covered by parachute payments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 So, if all the players from pre GSE had been on 3 year contracts say, would this have been covered by parachute payments? If all of the 06/07 recruits had been on 4 year contracts,then the second chute payment year would have been their final years.Obviously,any 07/08 recruits on 3 year contracts would equally fall out in this year.Worst case scenario is Clod,Feilhaber and Todd all being on 4 year contracts which would leave a (hardly demanding) final year.In any event,contract buy outs wouldn't be for the full contract amount (in my opinion). If by "covered" you're talking quantum,then you can start by deducting Sav etc from the £15.5m,quite a tasty bite.Then consider that the normal Championship revenues can support a certain level of players' wages and this can be augmented by the £15m (over 2 years) that I calculated.I venture to suggest that there's no problem,especially when you consider that we still have 15 of the 19 recruits left-did we really need this many? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 If all of the 06/07 recruits had been on 4 year contracts,then the second chute payment year would have been their final years.Obviously,any 07/08 recruits on 3 year contracts would equally fall out in this year.Worst case scenario is Clod,Feilhaber and Todd all being on 4 year contracts which would leave a (hardly demanding) final year.In any event,contract buy outs wouldn't be for the full contract amount (in my opinion). If by "covered" you're talking quantum,then you can start by deducting Sav etc from the £15.5m,quite a tasty bite.Then consider that the normal Championship revenues can support a certain level of players' wages and this can be augmented by the £15m (over 2 years) that I calculated.I venture to suggest that there's no problem,especially when you consider that we still have 15 of the 19 recruits left-did we really need this many? Just trying to get an idea of what financial state LOG did leave us in. As I have said to Curb they probably left us in a better position than we are in now, how signifcantly I have no clue. Its only fair though if we are going to be crediting them with the parachute payments they left behind, that we also knock off the value of any contracts they left behind. The 19 recruits were ridiculous but I still find it hard to slate any board on the back of giving a manager funds to spend, especially given that they are now being beaten for not giving the club funds to spend (even if that is not factually correct). I know the story goes that Jewell did not want to spend the money upon his appointment but I am sure this must have been discussed before he accepted the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 We didnt fare any better in the summer of 2008: (From a quick shufty at Wikipedia) In Paul Connolly, Paul Green, Jordan Stewart, Kris Commons (all frees) Nathan Ellington - season-long loan (with a view to a permanent deal). Steve Davies - on a Bosman (although as he was under 24, a tribunal fee was set at £275k, with an additional £450k based on appearances and promotion), Martin Albrechtsen free Liam Dickinson £750k Rob Hulse £1.75m Przemyslaw Kazmierczak season long loan Aleksandar Prijović free Andrejs Perepļotkins season long loan Nacer Barazite loan Ruben Zadkovich, Outs Michael Johnson, Lee Holmes Marc Edworthy Ben Hinchcliffe all contracts terminated Andy Todd was told to leave but wouldnt go Kenny Miller £2m Rob Earnshaw £2.65m David Jones £1.2m Craig Fagan, £750k Darren Moore, free Eddie Lewis, contract was terminated by mutual consent Benny Feilhabber free. Alan Stubbs retired through injury We didn't win a league game until September when we beat Sheff U 1-0 at home, a week shy of a year since the Premier League win over Newcastle, and nine months after GSE took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 We didnt fare any better in the summer of 2008: (From a quick shufty at Wikipedia) In Paul Connolly, Paul Green, Jordan Stewart, Kris Commons (all frees) Nathan Ellington - season-long loan (with a view to a permanent deal). Steve Davies - on a Bosman (although as he was under 24, a tribunal fee was set at £275k, with an additional £450k based on appearances and promotion), Martin Albrechtsen free Liam Dickinson £750k Rob Hulse £1.75m Przemyslaw Kazmierczak season long loan Aleksandar Prijović free Andrejs Perepļotkins season long loan Nacer Barazite loan Ruben Zadkovich, Outs Michael Johnson, Lee Holmes Marc Edworthy Ben Hinchcliffe all contracts terminated Andy Todd was told to leave but wouldnt go Kenny Miller £2m Rob Earnshaw £2.65m David Jones £1.2m Craig Fagan, £750k Darren Moore, free Eddie Lewis, contract was terminated by mutual consent Benny Feilhabber free. Alan Stubbs retired through injury We didn't win a league game until September when we beat Sheff U 1-0 at home, a week shy of a year since the Premier League win over Newcastle, and nine months after GSE took over. I think the signings made were of much better quality (with the exception of Dickinson) than the previous year but by then the club was in free fall and losing was as natural as breathing air. Forgot we had Alan Stubbs, he could have been a great signing if injury didn't cut short his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 The frustrating thing is that GSE HAVE put a lot of money into it, but have very little to show for it. At that point in time mentioned in the original post we still had 2 x £11m in parachute payments, plus the money GSE were going to put in over the following 3 years, something in the region of another £30m I think, and we're still a mid table Championship team. It beggars belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Just trying to get an idea of what financial state LOG did leave us in. As I have said to Curb they probably left us in a better position than we are in now, how signifcantly I have no clue. Its only fair though if we are going to be crediting them with the parachute payments they left behind, that we also knock off the value of any contracts they left behind. The 19 recruits were ridiculous but I still find it hard to slate any board on the back of giving a manager funds to spend, especially given that they are now being beaten for not giving the club funds to spend (even if that is not factually correct). I know the story goes that Jewell did not want to spend the money upon his appointment but I am sure this must have been discussed before he accepted the job. It's actually 20 recruits-I must have missed one.There were 4 in the Prem (discounting Stubbs),14 on Curb's list + Varney and Porter.According to his book (apparently),Sav alone would have accounted for c£1.4m ,incl employers' NIC. It's impossible to quantify the position,but they certainly didn't leave a mess,as some have suggested.I don't have a go at GSE over this,I criticise those who claim things on their behalf as fact (and there's a big difference).I've never heard GSE come out directly and say that the finances are superior to those left by the LOG-they're far too clever for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 The frustrating thing is that GSE HAVE put a lot of money into it, but have very little to show for it. At that point in time mentioned in the original post we still had 2 x £11m in parachute payments, plus the money GSE were going to put in over the following 3 years, something in the region of another £30m I think, and we're still a mid table Championship team. It beggars belief. Have you ever had a bank of cash come your way and decided to indulge yourself because a chunk of it wouldn't be missed.......only to regret the extravagance later.I rather suspect that this was the case with GSE and the Jan 08 spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Just to clarify an earlier point where I gave a figure of £2m from memory only,the actual debt at 30/6/08 was as follows:- Long term £15.558m,short term £13.255m,HP £3k,Overdraft £894k, giving a total of £29.71m. Hence the reduction from the £31m was £1.29m and not the £2m I suggested.However, it is an extra £1.29m into the equation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Good thread, couldn't resist a quick chip in... It seems to me that you can divide the GSE tenure thus far into the Adam Pearson era and the post-AP era. While AP was here, it was all about spending GSE's money in a frantic bid to keep/get back Prem status, when he left, it was all about Tom Glick stabilising the picture after GSE realised AP had failed to deliver. Billy bought absolute crap in the January of the promotion season and worse in the summer. Jewell repeated the trick in the January and although he bought some decent players in the post relegation pre-season (Hulse, Commons, Green, Davies), the squad was too big, and too full of egos and light on quality to get anywhere. Clough has had the job of clearing out all that garbage and rebuilding the club. He's done remarkably well, and wasted remarkably little of his spending. We may not be in great shape financially, but we aren't haemoraging money any more. I wonder where we'd be if he'd had the money we spent paying off Albrechtsen, Davis and the rest to push the boat out enough to get the ones he's wanted that slipped by like Jamie Mackie, or Gary Hooper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 We had a great chance but its passed us by, ironically now we've ran out of money and are having to be self sufficient people are probably more hopeful than they have been for years. I do think, however, that there is still a hangover from the Prem year, and everyone is content to sit in mid table. One last point about the perceived 'financial mess' when GSE took over: When the LOG took over from the crooks we didn't have a striker on the books, only just survived relegation and we were 54 million in debt: 'In April 2006, with Derby struggling in the Championship and £54m in debt, Gadsby managed to secure control of the club, partly after exposing the £375,000 taken out by Keith, Mackay and Mackenzie. One year later the mortgage on PPS had been renegotiated to a very low interest debt and the debt was down to £30m with tv money and 3 parachute payments to come. I honestly don't get the animosity towards them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Oops, double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 The lowest part of that season for me had to be playing Preston North End at home in the cup. I remember thinking "at least we have a game we might win now" ..... we were 3-0 down within half an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 We had a great chance but its passed us by, ironically now we've ran out of money and are having to be self sufficient people are probably more hopeful than they have been for years. I do think, however, that there is still a hangover from the Prem year, and everyone is content to sit in mid table. One last point about the perceived 'financial mess' when GSE took over: When the LOG took over from the crooks we didn't have a striker on the books, only just survived relegation and we were 54 million in debt: 'In April 2006, with Derby struggling in the Championship and £54m in debt, Gadsby managed to secure control of the club, partly after exposing the £375,000 taken out by Keith, Mackay and Mackenzie. One year later the mortgage on PPS had been renegotiated to a very low interest debt and the debt was down to £30m with tv money and 3 parachute payments to come. I honestly don't get the animosity towards them. Only 2 chute payments,curb,though it doesn't detract from your points.AP put them at £11.5m each,but there's evidence that the second one was over £12m and the total over £24m.Apparently this was due to an increase in income from overseas rights,but to be fair to AP,he wouldn't have known this in August 08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randombc Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Anyone know what the debt stands at now, and what the wage bill is now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby born & bred Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 WOW loving this post. My thoughts at the time was Gadsby brought in a a wrong man who should of taken more responsibilty than he did do. Adam Pearson from i think Hull. He was brought into the club to bring in more or new investment as far as i know and not new owners. I think the blame should fall partly on Gadsby and full blame on Pearsons/Billy boy and Jewell for this mess. I do believe GSE hold some sort of blame aswell,£50 million investment and world brand, but dont realy want to get into that. Some signings I could see was meant as good signings for the team and maybe in another life time they would of done except for bad luck and injuries i.e. Stubbs & Mills should have been a great pairing at the back, but for injuries and bad luck. Some other players I believe was not given a good run out and was good players and thats Jones and Feilhaber...the latter just not given a good run out at all. Think the two who went to Leicester Oakley and Howard were a big loss aswell. Well theres my twopennysworth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Anyone know what the debt stands at now, and what the wage bill is now? From the Telegraph report of the last accounts in May: DERBY County made a loss of £7.7m in the last financial year. And the club's accounts, published today, reveal that the debt has risen from £19.1m to £25.5m – although the difference is in the form of an interest-free loan from the owners. The loss was up from £2.2m on the previous 12 months, while turnover was down more than £11m from £29.8m to £18.1m in what was the Rams' third season back in the Championship and their first without Premier League parachute money. The latest accounts cover the period ending June 2011. Derby's wage bill for all members of the club's staff was reduced from £14.5m to £11.6m. Players' wages made up a large chunk of that figure. The current wage bill for players is between £9m and £10m now and will be lower next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekkie_ram Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Ok, well to change it slightly and combine our two points of view, we were very "lucky" to have that team and yet have 21 teams worse than us. We had a brilliant first half to the season and you must admit, in the second half of the season we weren't automatic promotion fodder. It was only because the rest of the league was incapable of putting a decent run together that we were still comfortably third. And you've actualy written a book? Is it available for purchase? We were top until Jon Stead chose Sheff Utd(?) over us. We were winning games for fun until a last minute equaliser cost us 2pts at home to Hull. We were definitely lucky to win the play-offs, but we were the 3rd best team in the regular season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramblur Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 From the Telegraph report of the last accounts in May: DERBY County made a loss of £7.7m in the last financial year. And the club's accounts, published today, reveal that the debt has risen from £19.1m to £25.5m – although the difference is in the form of an interest-free loan from the owners. The loss was up from £2.2m on the previous 12 months, while turnover was down more than £11m from £29.8m to £18.1m in what was the Rams' third season back in the Championship and their first without Premier League parachute money. The latest accounts cover the period ending June 2011. Derby's wage bill for all members of the club's staff was reduced from £14.5m to £11.6m. Players' wages made up a large chunk of that figure. The current wage bill for players is between £9m and £10m now and will be lower next season. Debt was signalled to increase by a further £5.8m via more loan capital in 11/12.Mind you,having said that ,I'm not absolutely sure that it'll be all loan capital as Glick said the split would then be roughly 50/50 between equity and loan capital.By my reckoning,if the £5.8m were to be all debt,the split would be exactly 50/50 at £14.3m each.Of course we don't know if any further loan has been made this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Just a little query to curb and ramblur... One last point about the perceived 'financial mess' when GSE took over: I honestly don't get the animosity towards them. Who actually is saying this? This thread wasn't about the LoG or GSE specifically, just the roller-coaster the club has been on during this time. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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