it will be five years tomorrow

[loweman2]

There are great opinions and facts and figures coming out here and it really does show why many fans are frustrated, its not something that just happens is it, it grows inside you and I suppose that is what being a football fan is really all about at our level.

It's putting up with the poor results, the inconsistent tactics, the underperforming players, the clueless management, the various boards with their own interests at heart just for those golden moments that come along every now and again.

Derby have had their share of them, unfortunately I was to young to witness most of them as I was born in 1970 and started taking an interest in Derby county just after we had won the championship for the second time, unfortunately for me it was mostly all down hill from then, through the Tommy Docherty / Colin Addison / John Newman days, the re-emergence of Peter Taylor and that fantastic cup in over Forest in 1983 through the centenary year when the club almost went to the wall, then the arrival of a certain Arthur Cox who transformed the shabby team of ex rams heroes and footballing has beens into a great footballing team that rose through the divisions with promotion year on year, with heroes like Bobby Davison and Phil Gee scoring for fun, then the big man arriving in the helicopter and getting so much abuse as he almost bankrupted the club again before falling off his boat never to be seen again.

Then the arrival of one of the most under respected and under talked about men in Derbys recent history, Lionel Pickering a true Derby County fan who put his money and his faith into Arthur Cox and later Jim smith he bought in quality players such as Dean Saunders, Mark Wright Peter Shilton, Marco Gabiadini, Tommy Johnson, Paul Kitson (not all of them turned out as expected) and his money enabled us to have a shiny new theatre of dreams where in those early days we played some of the most fantastic football since the 70s and gave us belief that we could go all the way and win the premiership, we finished in the top 6 and would have qualified for Europe if those scousers hadn't got us banned, players such as Baiano, Asanovic, Stimach, Eranio, Wanchope, Poom, Van de laan were pulling on the white shirt and playing with a passion, then it started to go down hill, the bald eagle seemed to lose his passion for the game.

Toddy came in was hardly given a chance, ex captain of the great 80s was called in to take the helm john Gregory, he wasted millions and got us relegated, the George burley reinstated some of the belief, he got us into the play offs with players like Raziak and Idiakes giving us something to cheer but booze and birds got the better of him (allegedly) and he was on his way and then we got to where this thread begins five years ago !! so its not all been gloom and doom but it has been very very inconsistent, a lot of frustration mixed with some great memories and a lot of money spent / wasted / invested / not invested and that I feel is how it will always be !!!!!! come on you Rams !!! (there is a lot of personal opinion and potential conjecture in here Ramblur before you pick me up on it !! LOL)

[loweman2]

Just a little query to curb and ramblur...

Who actually is saying this? This thread wasn't about the LoG or GSE specifically, just the roller-coaster the club has been on during this time.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince?

exactly Martin

[randombc]

From the Telegraph report of the last accounts in May:

DERBY County made a loss of £7.7m in the last financial year.

And the club's accounts, published today, reveal that the debt has risen from £19.1m to £25.5m – although the difference is in the form of an interest-free loan from the owners.

The loss was up from £2.2m on the previous 12 months, while turnover was down more than £11m from £29.8m to £18.1m in what was the Rams' third season back in the Championship and their first without Premier League parachute money.

The latest accounts cover the period ending June 2011.

Derby's wage bill for all members of the club's staff was reduced from £14.5m to £11.6m.

Players' wages made up a large chunk of that figure.

The current wage bill for players is between £9m and £10m now and will be lower next season.

Sorry i'm not great at this stuff, but didn't the board say they'd absorb the loss, and were not expecting to get it returned?

Have they changed there mind, or do they have to put all that into the accounts?

[Martyn]

exactly Martin

I thought you started a fun thread here until it was turned into a financial discussion.

[cheron85]

I thought you started a fun thread here until it was turned into a financial discussion.

I really enjoyed the first page... then the Xenophobes took over...

[ramblur]

Just a little query to curb and ramblur...

Who actually is saying this? This thread wasn't about the LoG or GSE specifically, just the roller-coaster the club has been on during this time.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince?

From the OP:-

"the last time we had money to spend (or should I say the money from a bank loan) we did not spend it wisely and five years on we have just about recovered from the mess"

The reason I asked G STAR RAM (who had accused me of propaganda) if any of my comments were biased or misleading was because propaganda actually implies this. Now the above quote appears to be pretty specific to the LOG to me and makes no reference to the problems caused by the recruitment of the 20 players for 08/09.As curb has pointed out,this activity was just as injurious to the finances as anything aimed at the LOG,and possibly even more so.The comment was biased and also misleading in regard to the loan, as we actually did have money to spend in that season (more than the amount of the loan).The "mess" was rather more than the spending of money that we actually had.

"the club is now on a more financial stable footing" was the claim.Could the poster back this up with any facts,or are we again into biased and possibly misleading territory? Does this comment reflect evenly on both administrations?

"numpties from the board". Shouldn't this have been "boards"?

Of course I could just have quoted your "This thread wasn't about the LOG or GSE specifically" and simply asked "Who are you trying to kid,Martyn" The poster didn't even make an attempt to point out that the Jan 08 activity was influenced by the current administration.

[curb]

OK, I accept now that it was probably just a throw away comment, but the main points of the original post were:

It's 5 years since the poison dwarf left

The Jewell era was disastrous

The club is now on a more stable financial footing under GSE

The last time we spent money was 5 years ago and it left us in a mess that we're only just recovering from.

Then it listed the players signed in the summer before the Prem season and the jan window when GSE took over.

I agreed with the first two points, and made my own comments on what I think of BD and some of the players signed in that era, I didn't agree, however, that we were left in a mess financially by signing those players, and the inference that the LOG left us in a mess that has took GSE 5 years to put right.

Obviously this sparked a debate and I used the facts as set out in the accounts to back up my arguments, which is where it inevitably turns into an accounts debate rather than a football debate.

I apologise for railroading the thread into another accounts debate, but it would probably have petered out anyway ( ther's only so much you can say about the players of that period - 'Bob Malcolm was ****' - 'yes he was').

I guess I'm still unhealthily obsessed with that period, it was like watching a plane crash in slow motion, and I got probably a little too caught up in analysing it, and the state of football in general, it was the first time I'd ever looked at a company's accounts, let alone a football company.

[Guest]

I thought you started a fun thread here until it was turned into a financial discussion.

I read the OP as stating that we are now on a more stable footing, that some fans want us to spend more money, refering to a bank loan the last time we spent money and that there were numpties from the board to manager.

So i too must have missed the point, I thought that the poster was trying to say that we should be happy that we dont have money to spend, comparing it to our last owners.

[Martyn]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, when I read it a never took it as an attack on the (unnamed) LoG, more a comment on that period as a whole. Which the OP has reaffirmed himself numerous times now.

From the OP:-

"the last time we had money to spend (or should I say the money from a bank loan) we did not spend it wisely and five years on we have just about recovered from the mess"

Now the above quote appears to be pretty specific to the LOG to me...

"the club is now on a more financial stable footing" was the claim.Could the poster back this up with any facts,or are we again into biased and possibly misleading territory? Does this comment reflect evenly on both administrations?

"numpties from the board". Shouldn't this have been "boards"?

Of course I could just have quoted your "This thread wasn't about the LOG or GSE specifically" and simply asked "Who are you trying to kid,Martyn" The poster didn't even make an attempt to point out that the Jan 08 activity was influenced by the current administration.

There's nothing you've quoted that appears like he';s singling out the LoG there. Are you sure you're not just jumping to the conclusion that he's of that opinion and then everything you read you see in that way?

That's certainly how it felt to me when we had our run-ins in the past.

[Martyn]

OK, I accept now that it was probably just a throw away comment, but the main points of the original post were:

It's 5 years since the poison dwarf left

The Jewell era was disastrous

The club is now on a more stable financial footing under GSE

The last time we spent money was 5 years ago and it left us in a mess that we're only just recovering from.

Then it listed the players signed in the summer before the Prem season and the jan window when GSE took over.

I agreed with the first two points, and made my own comments on what I think of BD and some of the players signed in that era, I didn't agree, however, that we were left in a mess financially by signing those players, and the inference that the LOG left us in a mess that has took GSE 5 years to put right.

I guess I just don't try and read more into those points as much as others. I would agree with them all (but expand the problem signings to include almost everyone Jewell signed!). I think I just stop before you get to "and the inference that the LOG left us in a mess that has took GSE 5 years to put right".

I apologise for railroading the thread into another accounts debate, but it would probably have petered out anyway ( ther's only so much you can say about the players of that period - 'Bob Malcolm was ****' - 'yes he was').

True, but it was fun. You have to laugh don't you? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[curb]

Eddie ******* Lewis

[ramblur]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, when I read it a never took it as an attack on the (unnamed) LoG, more a comment on that period as a whole. Which the OP has reaffirmed himself numerous times now.

There's nothing you've quoted that appears like he';s singling out the LoG there. Are you sure you're not just jumping to the conclusion that he's of that opinion and then everything you read you see in that way?

That's certainly how it felt to me when we had our run-ins in the past.

.... so which (unnamed) parties does the quote about the financial mess relate? Isn't it blatantly obvious? As for turning it into a financial debate,there was plenty about finances in the OP.Even ignoring other things,if it were just to be a debate about the football aspect,then it would have been enough to just name the ins and outs without feeling the need to specify the transfer fees.

[curb]

I really enjoyed the first page... then the Xenophobes took over...

Do you actually know what that means?

[Martyn]

As for turning it into a financial debate,there was plenty about finances in the OP.Even ignoring other things,if it were just to be a debate about the football aspect,then it would have been enough to just name the ins and outs without feeling the need to specify the transfer fees.

Fair enough then.

.... so which (unnamed) parties does the quote about the financial mess relate? Isn't it blatantly obvious?

Well the last time we (significantly) spent money would be January and Summer '08? So...

[cheron85]

Do you actually know what that means?

No... please do enlighten me... I often use words I don't know the meaning of such as "here" and "left" and "badger"...

And maybe in exchange you could tell me why I might have used the word in this context as well?

[loweman2]

I read the OP as stating that we are now on a more stable footing, that some fans want us to spend more money, refering to a bank loan the last time we spent money and that there were numpties from the board to manager.

So i too must have missed the point, I thought that the poster was trying to say that we should be happy that we dont have money to spend, comparing it to our last owners.

blimey you write a few lines to get a bit of a discussion going about how you feel thing have been in the last five years and It creates some interesting debate doesn't it.

I think to clear it up I am now going to have to break it down line for line and we can all really analyse it for any hidden agendas that even I didn't realise I was hinting at.

it is five years since "since the poison dwarf left Derby County" (true)

and we were due to move onto a new disastrous era under Paul Jewel (my opinion based on what I believed to be fact by such a piss poor run without a win)

who then did not manage to record a win until September 2008, (fact)

in January 2008 we were taken over by the American GSE consortium (true)

A lot has happened in the last five years, (true)

the club is now on a more financial stable footing (my opinion just based on being a football fan and on what I see being a season ticket holder week in week out)

and we are making steady progress and being talked about for all of the right reasons, (I believe that we are making steady progress in the football that we are trying to play)

we have a squad of young players a number of whom look like being able to develop into better footballers than they are now, ( Hughes, Brayford, Cotts, Hendrick, Jacobs, Bennett etc etc, conjecture on my part but from what I see they are improving)

some fans like Bris want us to spend more money but is that the answer or do we keep progressing slowly and improving the standard of football (by more money I mean £millions instead of hundreds of thousands),

if you gave nigel clough £10 million pounds I think he would ***** his pants, he would probably try and buy 20 players, (based on his levels of spending I beleive that to be true)

the last time we had money to spend (or should I say the money from a bank loan) we did not spend it wisely and five years on we have just about recovered from the mess,(or perhaps are you guys saying we haven't recovered from that mess we are still paying it off)

this is what we did in that fateful season with a number of numpties from the board to the managers, surely what we are doing at the moment makes sense (2008 was THAT season so I was reffering to who was in the various hot seats at that time).

as martyn says it was a meant to be a post about where we had come from and are thing so bad now even though we don't have millions to spend ?

I don't see any where I saying I am glad that we don't have any money to spend

[curb]

No... please do enlighten me... I often use words I don't know the meaning of such as "here" and "left" and "badger"...

And maybe in exchange you could tell me why I might have used the word in this context as well?

How could anything anyone has said on this thread be labelled as xenophobic?

[Guest]

as martyn says it was a meant to be a post about where we had come from and are thing so bad now even though we don't have millions to spend ?

I don't see any where I saying I am glad that we don't have any money to spend

Fair enough, although when you said "some fans like Bris want us to spend more money", I assumed you were debating this, and giving your view as being happy with the current situation compared to the last time when we spent money, I apologise for misreading this.

Im not bright enough to get into the finances, and dont care where we were 5 years ago, if I id look at previous times then why not look at past times why not compare it to 6.5 years ago when we were getting promoted, or when Smith was given that 1.5M to spend on an international that player got us promoted etc...

i dont care about LOG, or the three amigos, I just want to go and enjoy the game, sometimes I do, but more often than not its a poor standard, this I believe is in part down to the lack of money being available compared to other clubs in our league.

I do wonder though, if in 5 years time, we are still 12/13th in this league, what our debt/loans will be compared to 5 years ago, but as I said Im not that bright.

[Derby born & bred]

Well its been 5 yrs this has happened, but is everyone on here happy with the slow progress we have made since then?

I am and i,m not.

Part of me is very happy with the academy and players coming thru who are hungry and want to play for Derby county FC and of course the debt being brought down to i think is it £15 million some one said on here?

I know Nigel has had a mess to clear up and this takes time and money, but I also think he has had enough time now for it to be his own team and we should not be as inconsistant as we are at the moment and looking at top 6 as minimum ambition.

I am not 100% with GSE as they have been here a little longer than Nigel and they dont seem to want us to move forward i.e. head for the prem and are more interested in lowering the wage bill even more and happy we are staying in the NP championship for the time being. i feel like it is just mid table mediocroty for the forseable future and there not that bothered as they are filling the pockets with profits made from the new screens inside/out and of course the eletronic boards around the ground. They seem to be great at Marketing, but on the pitch not that interested in investing. Think its time for a change myself.

[ramblur]

Fair enough then.

Well the last time we (significantly) spent money would be January and Summer '08? So...

He specified "money from a loan",which is quite clear cut.If he'd mentioned Summer 08 in connection with "the mess",then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation,because the post would have had a bit more balance.Anyway,I'm out of it now.