Ticket prices

[CornwallRam]

That is correct, they even published a list of what games were rated as and their nominal "ST value", it was posted on here somewhere.

They have been pretty transparent it's just that a lot of fans - especially the more casual, per on the day type - won't be quite as aware what the situation is until they go to buy a ticket and think "what the hell's this!".

Think it will just take a while until people are used to it and feel comfortable with it.

There was a decent point raised at the forum on this which I hadn't thought of. It must be an aim of the club to convert the casual fan into a regular. If a fan takes advantage of an offer for a game - say Ticket, Pie & Pint for £15 and really enjoys it. A couple of days later he goes to the ticket office to buy a couple of tickets for Saturday's game and finds they are £32 each it's likely to put him off there and then. Instaed of converting him, he goes away feeling that the club are just trying to fleece him.

IMO This incremental pricing thing is a massive disincentive to the majority of casual fans - those who are committed enough, organised enough and who's lifestyle works that way would probably have bought tickets - and maybe season tickets or multi game plans anyway. All starting the prices off cheap has done is reduced the money that the club would have taken off these people anyway. At the other end of the scale it's priced many others out of the market.

[PrivateDerby]

Here's my quick solution to sorting out Derby County's attendance -

Stop ramming ramsplayer - It's brilliant for fans who live away or can't go to many games but I'd love to know how many people are subscribed to it who live in or around Derbyshire can attend games and tune in to every match. I subscribe so in no way am I knocking anyone but for example I try to make about 1 in 2/3 matches and realise that nothing beats the real thing.

No adult ticket to be priced above £30.

Rita, Sue and Bob too, he's your uncle didn't you know?

[rammieib]

Cornwall - I also thought that was a great point that gentleman made.

It'll be interesting to see if Rush does anything major this season.

[uttoxram75]

There was a decent point raised at the forum on this which I hadn't thought of. It must be an aim of the club to convert the casual fan into a regular. If a fan takes advantage of an offer for a game - say Ticket, Pie & Pint for £15 and really enjoys it. A couple of days later he goes to the ticket office to buy a couple of tickets for Saturday's game and finds they are £32 each it's likely to put him off there and then. Instaed of converting him, he goes away feeling that the club are just trying to fleece him.

IMO This incremental pricing thing is a massive disincentive to the majority of casual fans - those who are committed enough, organised enough and who's lifestyle works that way would probably have bought tickets - and maybe season tickets or multi game plans anyway. All starting the prices off cheap has done is reduced the money that the club would have taken off these people anyway. At the other end of the scale it's priced many others out of the market.

I've posted on this subject before. We need to make it easy and cheap for the casual fan to attend a game at short notice. Football in general is missing out on the many fans who drift in and out of supporting their local side.

Even back in the glory days of the early 70's the BBG attendance would shift between 40,000 and 30,000 depending on opposition/work/family etc.

As a season ticket holder I would have no problem with a block of seats being available cheaply to day trippers.

[Martyn]

I've posted on this subject before. We need to make it easy and cheap for the casual fan to attend a game at short notice. Football in general is missing out on the many fans who drift in and out of supporting their local side.

Even back in the glory days of the early 70's the BBG attendance would shift between 40,000 and 30,000 depending on opposition/work/family etc.

As a season ticket holder I would have no problem with a block of seats being available cheaply to day trippers.

Personally I'm in favour of the system as: -

1) It is possible to get cheaper prices than you would have previously

2) I rarely am able to attend matches and when I do it's always organised way way in advance - so I am able to benefit from point 1!

I wonder if it's just the method of setting the prices that needs to be improved.

It appears to be based upon: -

• The match category
  
• The number of tickets remaining
  
• How close to matchday it is
  

Maybe the key thing would be to drop the last variable?

I think we can all grasp some matches are more highly sought after than others. And it stands to reason that if demand is high and supply is low the market can bare higher prices and the club can benefit from that.

The only thing that seems "artificial" is the time-scale. If it's a cold Tuesday night and Peterborough are visiting... low category, hardly any tickets sold but as you get nearer the game the prices keep going up and up? All it will do is guarantee a low attendance.

If it's just done on tickets sold, you'll still get cheaper tickets the earlier you buy as prices will still rise based on the actual sales real demand for the game. Few tickets sold the day before the game you should still get a reasonable price ticket.

Thoughts?

[randombc]

On a related topic to ticket prices, who will be going to the Blackburn FA cup game?

£12 for an Adult for a non-season ticket holder I think is great value and £6 for a concession!

A family of 4 can get the match for £36, that's nearly the same price as ticket vs Leeds for 1 adult!

I expect a much bigger attendance than the one at Tranmere

[CornwallRam]

On a related topic to ticket prices, who will be going to the Blackburn FA cup game?

£12 for an Adult for a non-season ticket holder I think is great value and £6 for a concession!

A family of 4 can get the match for £36, that's nearly the same price as ticket vs Leeds for 1 adult!

I expect a much bigger attendance than the one at Tranmere

It was the same price for Tranmere, but again, it's great value.

With it being round 4 and better opposition I think they will sell quite a few more tickets. If by any chance we win the next two league matches and are sitting pretty in the playoffs having beaten the trees again they just might need to open the closed off section of the ground.

FA rules state that adult tickets have to be at least £10 - which is the STH price, so the club actually couldn't have been more generous. IMO an excellent decision.

[ramblur]

Personally I'm in favour of the system as: -

1) It is possible to get cheaper prices than you would have previously

2) I rarely am able to attend matches and when I do it's always organised way way in advance - so I am able to benefit from point 1! 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

I wonder if it's just the method of setting the prices that needs to be improved.

It appears to be based upon: -

• The match category
  
• The number of tickets remaining
  
• How close to matchday it is
  

Maybe the key thing would be to drop the last variable?

I think we can all grasp some matches are more highly sought after than others. And it stands to reason that if demand is high and supply is low the market can bare higher prices and the club can benefit from that.

The only thing that seems "artificial" is the time-scale. If it's a cold Tuesday night and Peterborough are visiting... low category, hardly any tickets sold but as you get nearer the game the prices keep going up and up? All it will do is guarantee a low attendance.

If it's just done on tickets sold, you'll still get cheaper tickets the earlier you buy as prices will still rise based on the actual sales real demand for the game. Few tickets sold the day before the game you should still get a reasonable price ticket.

Thoughts?

I think "personally" is the key there,Martyn.People with different circumstances may take an opposite view.

Don't understand why you would omit proximity to match,without also deleting number of remaining tickets (latter should fall the closer you get to matchday,unless none are being sold).To me,I think the key lies in arriving at an affordable fixed price, not based on demand,with perhaps a small discount for very early buyers to assist cash flow.

[ramblur]

I think on the SR thread I pointed out the fact that you couldn't have a 'dry run' if a decision were made to reduce prices of S/Ts and walk ins,and that it could prove disastrous.I may have been premature there,as it occurs to me that if S/T prices were lowered all of the current holders would probably renew (a calcuable-by the club-base).You might then attract additional S/T holders,but the club might well feel that the numbers would be insufficient to make up lost ground.

However,lowering S/T prices would enable you to lower the price of walk ins (where there seems to be evidence that many may bite at a certain level),so could an increase in these numbers save the day,or even lead to greater overall income?Perhaps the potential for disaster isn't as high as I first imagined.

[Martyn]

I think "personally" is the key there,Martyn.People with different circumstances may take an opposite view.

Indeed and most people have done! I think most don't seem to be aware that is also applies to them.

Don't understand why you would omit proximity to match,without also deleting number of remaining tickets (latter should fall the closer you get to matchday,unless none are being sold).

For precisely that reason - that provide the variability you need, based on something useful. Other wise you'd just end up with fixed-price ticket again...

To me,I think the key lies in arriving at an affordable fixed price, not based on demand,with perhaps a small discount for very early buyers to assist cash flow.

Ah, well if you're against demand-based pricing in principal then there isn't much to discuss! Personally I'm in favour. But even with fixed-price tickets as they were we still had a type of "demand-based" pricing as we already have Match and Seat Categories. What is that other than pricing for demand? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[networker1884]

The official petition to cap away ticket prices at £30.

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-english-fa-and-the-premier-league-cap-away-ticket-prices-in-the-premier-league-at-30

[ramblur]

Ah, well if you're against demand-based pricing in principal then there isn't much to discuss! Personally I'm in favour. But even with fixed-price tickets as they were we still had a type of "demand-based" pricing as we already have Match and Seat Categories. What is that other than pricing for demand? 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Not against demand based pricing in principle,just don't think it can function properly if not allowed to fall below S/T equivalent prices.Anyway,I've a revolutionary new idea.......

At the end of this season the club will know the total income in respect of walk ins for League games.I'll use this as a base point.S/T holders will probably be paying the same price next year as this.My idea is that walk ins pay a fixed price,matching those specified in the various S/T categories (groans of resentment from some).However,at the end of the year,if the income from walk ins has exceeded the base figure,then 40% of the increase be returned to S/T holders by means of a discount (same %age for all) for the following season.

From the club's point of view,they suffer a cash reduction in the value of renewals equal to the discount,but this would have been offset by their 60% share of the gain +ancillary income generated.

Some might say 'how would we know the club was playing ball',but there's a simple answer to that.At the moment in the accounts a global figure is given for total gate receipts.I'm not sure that splitting this between S/T receipts/walk ins (League games)/cup income would be releasing sensitive information.It would then be possible to calculate the %age discount you should receive.

It would be important to use this first base figure every year,with the discount varying from year to year.

Of course you could tweak the percentages and maybe add £1 to the walk in fixed price.

If it doesn't provide a gain,simply scrap the plan.

[CornwallRam]

I think on the SR thread I pointed out the fact that you couldn't have a 'dry run' if a decision were made to reduce prices of S/Ts and walk ins,and that it could prove disastrous.I may have been premature there,as it occurs to me that if S/T prices were lowered all of the current holders would probably renew (a calcuable-by the club-base).You might then attract additional S/T holders,but the club might well feel that the numbers would be insufficient to make up lost ground.

However,lowering S/T prices would enable you to lower the price of walk ins (where there seems to be evidence that many may bite at a certain level),so could an increase in these numbers save the day,or even lead to greater overall income?Perhaps the potential for disaster isn't as high as I first imagined.

I would have thought that it would be easy to calculate the maximum possible loss by a reduction in season ticket prices. As our owners are a - wealthy and b - having to continually provide money to cover running costs, that they might consider such a move a worthwhile risk if it actually offered them the possibility of reducing the yearly deficit. They could decide to knock 20% off every season ticket - which my back of an envelope calculation gives a cash value of c£1m - such a calculation ought to be pretty simple for someone who has the actuall figures to hand. This would represent the maximum loss if no extra tickets are sold. In reality some extra season tickets would be bound to be sold so the real exposure would be soemthing less than that. I agree with your reasoning that overall the club would sell far more tickets and consequently make more money.

I think that the demand based model could still be used - but the formula would need to be re-thought. Use a sales prediction graph based on historic sales data. Start the tickets at 150% of their minimum (which could be very low if STH had already been looked after) and really advertise the fact that booking early secures the seat of your choice. If ticket sales are below the predicted figues the ticket prices fall, if they are above, they rise. If the match is heading for a sellout the last 200 tickets could easily rise to £50 each - if demand is low then ticket prices remain at a minimum. The system now only increases prices with little refernce to demand - and you get the ludicrous spectacle of tickets costing over £30 with more than 10,000 seats still to be sold.

I did wonder how much the club is likely make from filling the stadium at a cheap price. Imagine the difference between a 23k crowd and a £33k crowd - if the difference in ticket prices meant that the club made the same money from each. There would be extra costs for a larger crowd - cleaning, administering the sales and maybe policing/stewarding. However, the club should make more in other sales. The obvious one is the concourse food and beverage outlets. I believe that they have been 'outsourced'. so it is possible that such extra sales do not benefit the club (or the agreement might include sliding fees based around sales or attendences). Extra programme sales will help a little, but if 25% of extra customers buy one it only works out as an extra £7500. The club shop will be busier - but need extra staff (hopefully that hasn't been sold off). Presumably the hospitality side - boxes and McFarland's Bar would be unaffected. I would say the details of the catering contract are key to whether bigger attendences financially benefit the club if they don't result in extra ticket revenue.

I also wonder if the club really want to sell too many more season tickets. If walk up demand were high the club could make a lot more from selling the seats on a match by match basis, rather than in the form of season tickets. If they were confident of a good season it might be a reasonable strategy to increase season ticket prices to activelly dampen demand - but the expectation of a season that was so good would surely involve a huge outlay in squad strengthening.

[ramblur]

I did say the club would be able to calculate the 'initial' loss!

On the subject of dampening down S/T sales,you have to remember the revolving loan.

[ramblur]

Just to correct my earlier post,the club wouldn't lose the 40% discount, as it would have been gained in the first place,so they would gain 60% + ancillary income.

[Martyn]

Interesting to hear other methods, there really are a number of ways it could be done. I wonder if the club look into any of the more radical/complex methods? Digonex is supposed to be "intelligent" but I wonder if it's flexible enough to allow for some of these ideas.

I'd be fascinated to find out how some of these ideas would pan out but I doubt we'll ever see many of them because of the potential risks.

[rammieib]

Martyn

Generally I agree with your idea, it's what I would do as well.

Ticket income accounts for about 30% to 40% of income into the club, so although it's probably the single biggest factor, it's not like we are talking 60% plus. If we ever achieved promotion, the percentage would drop dramatically.

The area you don't cover are the soft benefits of performing a radical move like this;

1) imagine the good publicity of drastically reducing ticket prices, we would gain National respect instantaneously. Rush talked about this in his fans forum.

2) the ability to attract better footballers if you are playing in front of 30,000 every week. Conversely, the ability to keep better footballers

3) the increase in sponsorship we could attract from having regular attendances of this level. I cannot quantify that hence it goes in as a soft cost for now.

4) feel good vibe around the club and city would lead to increase merchandise sales, increased commercial revenue (use of pride park facilities for non sporting events etc)

5) increased chance of being selected for live games. I know the cup matches attract additional revenue for live games, I don't know about individual league games.

I honestly think its a no brainer.

Now onto my other point about cup matches - why not allow supporters to choose whether cup matches are automatically supplied to you and paid by direct debit. I know this may mean more areas of the ground have to be opened up potentially but how many season ticket holders don't go because they cannot be bothered purchasing a ticket? If the ticket came automatically in the post, that would make it much easier. If you buy tickets over the phone, there is a booking fee of £1 per ticket, so the club still do fleece you in some ways!

[ramblur]

Cornwall,I know your £1m cash loss was back of envelope stuff,but I think you're a bit on the high side.Total match receipts ex vat came in at £5.551m in 10/11-I know that there's since been a price increase,but there's also been falling attendances,so I doubt the overall picture will have changed dramatically.This however merely emphasises our point that the potential downside isn't that great in respect of price reductions.

Not sure that a decrease of 20% is viable though-unless my school maths has gone awry,you'd need to increase S/T numbers by 25% (assuming evenly,accross the board) to make up lost ground.Assuming this isn't achievable,walk ins would have to compensate for a shortfall (just to match the prior position).Whatever numbers we have of these at the moment,they are probably paying more in aggregate than our method would yield.Hence you'd have to make up this shortfall (as well as a possible S/T deficit) by a large number just to match the present situation.It seems to me you'd need very large consistent crowds to make a gain.

Certainly reversing this year's increase would help.Whilst I can appreciate that there hadn't been an increase in years,I don't think foisting one on a market that couldn't fully absorb it (due to harsh economic climate) was a particularly good idea.