Shaun Barker

[uttoxram75]

Some of you are one step away from kneeling at his feet the way you talk about Barker.

It's bizarre. Yes he's hardworking on the pitch and passionate about the game. Yes he seems a very likeable person and ultimately a good ambassador for the club.

But wouldn't we all if we were paid several thousands a week for the privilege?

Let's face it, he's a decidedly average defender and the fact that he is hero-worshipped by some despite failing to achieve anything of note at the club says it all about how the culture of the club has changed over recent years.

One of the posters suggested he's 'one of us'. Yes because he gave two lemon meringues about Derby County before he signed on the dotted line in the summer of 2009...

I'm not going to dispute that after spending three years in Derby, he may have grown fond of the city and the club. But one of us? How naive.

Your reading too much into it. Some of us think he's a top championship player. Some don't. It was ever thus.............

[needles]

Rewinding slightly,

i have had a nice conversation with myNameisPrince.

i now understand that he was not claiming to have been in the 'derby' dressing room with Brian Clough.

he says he was in the forest dressing room in the 80s and was not a player or a coach, but a fan.

I'm happy to take that in good faith and i therefore i am pleased to withdraw the 'walter mitty' reference and 'the 'zero credibility ' comment.

Can i also make a plea.

Its time to lay off bris (and even smiffy) and put the various arguments aside.

We are all entitled to our different perspectives whether we are watching from 50 yards away or via ramsplayer etc.

We are all derby fans and we can at least all agree to share the hope that better days are around the corner.

we can also try to enjoy and celebrate whatever success comes our way too.

I personally can't wait for the next match.

smiffy I class as a buddy who I've had many heated and sweary debates with over the years, and still respect his opinion, diametrically opposed to mine as it is. Once you work out where he's coming from you see his POV even if you disagree.

Bris telling us he doesn't rate Barker is one thing, Bris telling me why I do rate Barker is quite another, and I feel free at that point to point out that seeing a game in 3D, live, gives a far better perspective than in 2D on whatever camera angle the director sees fit to show, and hence a far better opportunity to evaluate a player. Doesn't make me a bigger fan, better person, have a bigger dong or owt and I haven't claimed it. Just in a better position to rate a player than he is.

I still don't think it matters a jot who Prince is. If we supported our clubs like we were 10 years old again and just pure loved it, it would make for a much better afternoon out.

[Jourdan]

Even Bris thinks he's a "good" Championship defender. Who would you mark out as a top Championship defender then, if Barks is "decidedly average"?

The culture of the club has changed radically and for the better. The culture of the fans is the same as ever. We love any player who gives his all, and continually hope for better ones and more victories. Where's the problem?

There really aren't many 'top' players at this level in general and if there are, they don't stay here for long!

How many players do you actually watch and think 'he's too good for the Championship' or 'why isn't he playing at a higher level'? Not too many, I'd hazard to guess.

I could probably name a handful that I'd consider 'top' defenders at this level in Barker's position myself. Curtis Davies, Alex Baptiste and Roger Johnson. The pickings are slim. Generally most defenders at this level are particularly average or limited.

As for my problems with the culture at the club, well let's just say I can't imagine we'd be releasing a commemorative DVD of us beating a lower league team in a FA Cup replay at home on penalties under any other regime and labelling it 'Cup of Joy' no less do you?

But then again given that we have been knocked out of the League Cup by lower league opposition for four consecutive years, I suppose looking back it was quite the triumph!

[smiffy]

Strange though that Clough chose to go for Barker from Blackpool, instead of Babtiste, who he had on loan at Burton.

[smiffy]

I must have been away that afternoon.

You remember, a couple of seasons ago, we had one of our best runs under N C, Anderson was outstanding.

[uttoxram75]

You remember, a couple of seasons ago, we had one of our best runs under N C, Anderson was outstanding.

This football lark is rarely about the best players. Its a team game and sometimes the most unlikely players just click making the whole better than the component parts. I remember walking out the ground thinking Anderson had played like Roy McFarland.

I also once witnessed Andy Todd playing like his dad!

[needles]

There really aren't many 'top' players at this level in general and if there are, they don't stay here for long!

How many players do you actually watch and think 'he's too good for the Championship' or 'why isn't he playing at a higher level'? Not too many, I'd hazard to guess.

I could probably name a handful that I'd consider 'top' defenders at this level in Barker's position myself. Curtis Davies, Alex Baptiste and Roger Johnson. The pickings are slim. Generally most defenders at this level are particularly average or limited.

As for my problems with the culture at the club, well let's just say I can't imagine we'd be releasing a commemorative DVD of us beating a lower league team in a FA Cup replay at home on penalties under any other regime and labelling it 'Cup of Joy' no less do you?

But then again given that we have been knocked out of the League Cup by lower league opposition for four consecutive years, I suppose looking back it was quite the triumph!

Curtis Davies is one of those centre halves who's got all the tools and never puts it all together. Keeps getting contracts to play for peoples reserves. Barker is better because of what's between his ears.

I'll give you Johnson, but he has played Prem and just got relegated. I'm not convinced he's all that either. A week ago you could have similarly talked Wardy down because he isn't Steven Fletcher.

I refer you to smiffy on Baptiste.

You seem to be confusing culture with results too. Big money waste of space players like Claude Davies have gone, and been replaced with quality, solid individuals like, ahem, Shaun Barker. Deserate, cobble-it-together-and-hope team picking has been replaced by a coherent, honest, pass and graft strategy throughout the club, youth team up. Ultimately this will produce results.

[uttoxram75]

What game was it a few years ago when Andy Todd had the game of his life?

[needles]

You remember, a couple of seasons ago, we had one of our best runs under N C, Anderson was outstanding.

I rated Anderson smiffy, justy teasing a bit. Poor beggar never got on a decent spell fit did he. Good character too.

[uttoxram75]

Curtis Davies is one of those centre halves who's got all the tools and never puts it all together. Keeps getting contracts to play for peoples reserves. Barker is better because of what's between his ears.

I'll give you Johnson, but he has played Prem and just got relegated. I'm not convinced he's all that either. A week ago you could have similarly talked Wardy down because he isn't Steven Fletcher.

I refer you to smiffy on Baptiste.

You seem to be confusing culture with results too. Big money waste of space players like Claude Davies have gone, and been replaced with quality, solid individuals like, ahem, Shaun Barker. Deserate, cobble-it-together-and-hope team picking has been replaced by a coherent, honest, pass and graft strategy throughout the club, youth team up. Ultimately this will produce results.

I agree with this. Clough has been criticised for some poor play, hoofball etc by a lot of loyal fans. I'm talking blokes who go every away game and have seen some ***** over the last few seasons.

I have argued that despite the evidence on the pitch, Clough has never bought the 7 foot robots needed to play hoofball. Most of his signings have been fairly lightweight if anything suggesting he does want to play a pass and move game.

We'll see this season I reckon. Seems to me a good mixture of graft and flair in the squad this time.

[needles]

What game was it a few years ago when Andy Todd had the game of his life?

I remember his diving header v Portsmouth. One of 3 highlights that season. Can't remember him doing much else though.

[Jourdan]

What game was it a few years ago when Andy Todd had the game of his life?

The home leg of the League Cup semi-final versus Manchester United?

[Bris Vegas]

None of those players would I swap for Barker. Not even close. Riggs in his 'boro prime, maybe, didn't see enough of him there to comment. As defenders Mooro was stronger, Barker better in every other department, Leacock quicker, Barker better in every other department, Shackell similar just not as good.

Bris, I don't know what influences your opinion, I assume from your post it's based on where the team they played in finished in the league. My opinion is not based on character assessment, or Bucko would be Franz Beckenbauer, it's based on going to football matches and watching Derby County centre halves defend. We've had some good ones; Stimac, Yates, West, McGrath, Laursen and Wright in my time who were better than Barker, probably one or two I've forgotten. A few who were similar. There is no proof of course, this is football not cluedo, but if we're stacking up the circumstantial evidence on who's opinion to take, my watching live games trumps your RamsPlayer and stats sites all day long.

Are you serious? Riggott was a top half PL player and was a starter in a team that made the Europa League final.. Barks better? You must be a personal friend to believe so, because that's like saying Theo is better than Bobby Zamora..

Moore was stronger, positonally quite decent, beat virtually everyone in the air and was as solid as a rock.. He's also won promotion a few times and played in the PL.. Barkers career highlight is playing 20 odd games in a team that finished 12th.. If you're a good player, you play at a good level. The NPC is not a good level.

Leacock is the same above.. He's quicker than Barks, positionally better, passes better, tackles better.. Kept far more cleansheets (with Moore) and won promotion..

Shackell has earned big money moves and has played for decent NPC clubs.. He wouldn't be a wanted man if he wasn't good.. Our defence improved massively when he was here, he's better than Barks and results proved that..

My opinion isn't just league position.. You can judge each aspect of a defenders game.. The reason why Barker isn't wanted by anyone and never has been wanted by top NPC/PL teams is that positionally he isn't that good, he's slow, easily turned, can't pass and occasionally gets dragged woefully out of position.. The guy is a monster in the air and is a good talker.. That's what he excells that, the rest is no better than an average NPC defender..

You watch the game at the stadium, I watch the game on TV.. It's the same, I see everything you see but with more technology, instant replies, defensive lines, coverage from those that have played the game and from multiple angles.. Don't start with that nonsense that being at the game tells you far more than one on TV, it doesn't..

[Jourdan]

Curtis Davies is one of those centre halves who's got all the tools and never puts it all together. Keeps getting contracts to play for peoples reserves. Barker is better because of what's between his ears.

I'll give you Johnson, but he has played Prem and just got relegated. I'm not convinced he's all that either. A week ago you could have similarly talked Wardy down because he isn't Steven Fletcher.

I refer you to smiffy on Baptiste.

You seem to be confusing culture with results too. Big money waste of space players like Claude Davies have gone, and been replaced with quality, solid individuals like, ahem, Shaun Barker. Deserate, cobble-it-together-and-hope team picking has been replaced by a coherent, honest, pass and graft strategy throughout the club, youth team up. Ultimately this will produce results.

Are we talking about the same Curtis Davies? He's been a first-team regular wherever he's been, most recently playing in excess of 40 games and helping Birmingham finish in the top six last season. How does that constitute signing contracts to play reserve team football? The only time he's been out of favour is at Aston Villa, an established Premier League club.

And well Roger Johnson was superb for Cardiff for a number of years and his performances for Birmingham in the Premier League earned him a £7 million price tag. Sure he's had a difficult time at Wolves. Who hasn't? But he remains a very good defender.

And from reading Smiffy's posts, he can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was suggesting that Clough had made a good decision overlooking Baptiste. Quite the opposite. Baptiste was a highly-rated prospect at Mansfield but he has really matured at Blackpool. He's blossomed into a very good, all-round defender with all the attributes you'd be looking for at this level.

If Barker was that good and such an intelligent player, why has he been so content at a midtable Championship club all these years and why haven't bigger clubs come in for him before we did?

When referring to the culture of the club, I was getting at how the club unashamedly celebrate mediocrity and the general lack of ambition at the club in that Shaun Barker is revered and staying in the Championship is viewed as an achievement.

The style of football and youth policy Clough is trying to implement is yet to bear fruit. But when it does, believe me, I'll change my tack and give credit where it's due.

[BorneoRam]

Yes, please do not start the you cannot judge a game on TV argument, not because it is right or wrong, just that it has been done so many times before.

From what I have seen on Barks (and yes it was on TV) there are 2 distinct players - the one when he first arrived before he did his knee the first time and the one at the start of last season before the Forest game, that Barks was, IMO, a very good championship defender, ally that with his obvious character and there would not be many I would swap him for in this league - problem is the other Barks who played injured was a lot closer to average but was needed to be there for his heading ability and presence - you take an average over his time here and you get a good defender.

I think a fully fit Barks would get into most sides in this league, I just hope for his sake and ours that is what comes out of this because for any faults he may have as a player he always seems a really genuine guy who is incredibly well respected and wants to play for the shirt (and before anyone twists that last statement, I realise he is paid well but so are others and it doesn't always translate into the same thing - comparisons have to be relative).

[uttoxram75]

The home leg of the League Cup semi-final versus Manchester United?

Yes mate, of course it was. looked absolute class that night.

[needles]

I've given my opinion on all these defenders, don't propose to re-state the case.

A couple of things need pointing out though. As I said, Riggott may have been a better defender in his prime than Barker, but he wasn't at Derby in his prime was he? That was the original point after all. If Leacock is all that, what's he doing at Notts County? To big up Mooro (who I respect) and then say that Barker is slow, easily turned and can't pass all in the same post is just perverse. Bucko passes better than Mooro did.

This argument that if was any good why hasn't he played at a better level is a iffy too. Too many other factors. The NPC IS a good level too, 5th best supported league in Europe blah blah, as 75% of Prem players are now foreign, most of the 26th to 100th percentile "best" English players are now in the Championship. Players who come from even below that level after a long career can and do prove they can cut it at the top, Grant Holt and Ricky Lambert spring to mind.

[needles]

Yes mate, of course it was. looked absolute class that night.

Missed that game. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':angry:' />

[needles]

Also, blatantly, it is miles better to watch players in the flesh than on TV. Not even close. Aside from the cold logic of getting the full picture, why do scouts go to games otherwise? There's been debate about this? Wow.

[BorneoRam]

Also, blatantly, it is miles better to watch players in the flesh than on TV. Not even close. Aside from the cold logic of getting the full picture, why do scouts go to games otherwise? There's been debate about this? Wow.

Can you not just go back through the archives or something? as I said, it has been done to death and the questions you raised have been gone over umpteen times, I see both sides of the coin but whatever.

Long and short of it - argue all you like about how good or bad any one or any team is but recognise if someone has watched the game on TV because they can't get to games for whatever reason then they are allowed to have an opinion and it should not be belittled or discredited because they were not seeing it live