United v Arsenal

[Bris Vegas]

The thing is bris you listed a load of Spanish teams which have been comfortably outperformed by Arsenal in Europe for the 15 years. You seem to have a raging boner for anything Latin, i can't really take your point of view seriously with your obvious bias. Man Utd's net spend would be pretty bad if the Spanish government hadn't paid 80m for greaseball.

Honestly i don't really care what happens in Spain as i said before, corrupt cheaters. Which is a shame because they are technically great but any team that lines up with the intent to get players sent off i have zero respect for.

Wenger delivered trophies to Arsenal way beyond their expectations. YR you talk about Wenger being arrogant and mardy, do you feel the same about a certain legend of our past?

Arsenal, 1 European cup fnal in the past 15 years.. Nothing else, not even close. They also only made the final because Requilme missed a last minute penalty for Villareal after Arsenal had been completely dominated.

Last 10 years for Spanish teams

Valencia, 2 European cup finals

Sevilla, 2 Europa League winners plus 1 European supercup winner (3-0 vs barca) and 1 runner-up

Atletico Madrid, 1 Europa League winner plus European supercup winner (2-0 vs Inter Milan)

No, actually it's Arsenal that has been outperformed by these teams.. Never even played in a Euro Supercup final.. Arsenal have been incredibly lucky over the years with being a pot A CL team.. The moment they get a good team like Chelsea, Barca, Man Utd, Bayern etc.. They crash out of Europe.

You're just like any other English football fan, blinded by The PL and it's 'greatness' to undertstand that in reality the teams and players in The PL aren't actually that good..

Arsenal since losing that final in 2006 has never even been close to being a top team, not even top 5 in Europe at any stage.. Even Liverpool have bettered them.. Arsene was a top manager, the last 5-6 years he's lost the plot and he's living off past glories.. There's aways a time to get rid of a manager, for Arsenal it past 3 years ago.

You can't take my point of view seriously because you have probably have no knowledge of football outside of England.. Which basically means you have no arguement against the things I say and resort to calling me obsessed with latin football.. I'm a DCFC fan but I'm also a huge football fan.. That means I follow football, with my regions, in South America and Spain.. I don't have the PL tunnel vision where I think football outside of it doesn't exist..

[RamNut]

Arsenal, 1 European cup fnal in the past 15 years..

Even Real Madrid have only had 1 final in the last 10 years.

Why would Arsenal be expected to achieve more?

[Bris Vegas]

Even Real Madrid have only had 1 final in the last 10 years.

Why would Arsenal be expected to achieve more?

I like how you try and twist my words..

Infact Real Madrid have had 2 finals in the past 15 years.. Wining them both 3-0 against Valencia and 2-1 against Leverkusen

Arsenal have 1 final appearance nothing esle.. They're equal to like Monaco, Leverkusen when it comes to European Success.. Unless you count making the semis as a major achievement and one to tell the Grandkids when they're older?

I thought Arsenal are a big club? If you sell season tickets for a $1000, I'd at least expect either entertainment/trophies/final appearances/world class players..

[Leeds Ram]

I was talking more about character traits than decisions taken, but i wouldn't say Wenger was arrogant in any of his media dealings. Clough was the same whether we won or lost and we didn't win 100% of the time he was here. Arrogance is the wrong word for Wenger because he isn't, he's no worse at handling the media than SAF. People forget Wenger was a nobody when he joined, Arsenal couldn't have dreamt of competing for titles. So in his time they have won many major honours and have a huge new stadium, i don't think Wenger needs to be humble about anything. The board there know any other manager would have sank long before Wenger has over the last few years.

I think Arsenal are just 4 quality players from really competing again, they need some leaders.

They are more than 4 players short, there squad isn't a top 3 squad and they don't have much strength in depth at all. I am not saying wengers achievements at the club aren't great because they are, however his plan has failed, the regeneration of the arsenal squad is slowly but steadily falling apart. People are restless and one can argue that wenger could be fighting for his job already, he needs results. I personally believe he is arrogant, he complains about teams playing a certain way and making certain challenges when his team are by far and away the most petulant in the league. He can't see the merit in playing a different way which for me is arrogance and intransigence, he thinks he can't be removed he is wrong, no one is irreplaceable especially someone who hasn't won a damn thing in 6 years. The stadium was a mistake, it is big but it seems soulless on television and the 390 million is a big repayment.

[tomsdubs]

Arsenal, 1 European cup fnal in the past 15 years.. Nothing else, not even close. They also only made the final because Requilme missed a last minute penalty for Villareal after Arsenal had been completely dominated.

Last 10 years for Spanish teams

Valencia, 2 European cup finals

Sevilla, 2 Europa League winners plus 1 European supercup winner (3-0 vs barca) and 1 runner-up

Atletico Madrid, 1 Europa League winner plus European supercup winner (2-0 vs Inter Milan)

No, actually it's Arsenal that has been outperformed by these teams.. Never even played in a Euro Supercup final.. Arsenal have been incredibly lucky over the years with being a pot A CL team.. The moment they get a good team like Chelsea, Barca, Man Utd, Bayern etc.. They crash out of Europe.

You're just like any other English football fan, blinded by The PL and it's 'greatness' to undertstand that in reality the teams and players in The PL aren't actually that good..

Arsenal since losing that final in 2006 has never even been close to being a top team, not even top 5 in Europe at any stage.. Even Liverpool have bettered them.. Arsene was a top manager, the last 5-6 years he's lost the plot and he's living off past glories.. There's aways a time to get rid of a manager, for Arsenal it past 3 years ago.

You can't take my point of view seriously because you have probably have no knowledge of football outside of England.. Which basically means you have no arguement against the things I say and resort to calling me obsessed with latin football.. I'm a DCFC fan but I'm also a huge football fan.. That means I follow football, with my regions, in South America and Spain.. I don't have the PL tunnel vision where I think football outside of it doesn't exist..

All those Spanish finalists were at a lower standard as Arsenal have been in the Champions League not the Europa mickey mouse cup. I ain't blinded by the prem and it's money i ******* hate it. Yeah of course i don't have any knowledge, think whatever you want. A few years ago we had an all English final so it kind of contradicts all you say. I watch Spanish football and enjoy the technical nature, but the slow pace and avoidance of the physical nature of the game combined with play acting is just plain *****. They act like a bunch of girls, but occasionally some football breaks out and we see some action.

Yeah the English teams just aren't that good, that is why they make the top European cup final on a routine basis. We'll see how this years Champions league pans out mate, I'm quietly confident the English teams will match the Spanish sides

[Bris Vegas]

All those Spanish finalists were at a lower standard as Arsenal have been in the Champions League not the Europa mickey mouse cup. I ain't blinded by the prem and it's money i ******* hate it. Yeah of course i don't have any knowledge, think whatever you want. A few years ago we had an all English final so it kind of contradicts all you say. I watch Spanish football and enjoy the technical nature, but the slow pace and avoidance of the physical nature of the game combined with play acting is just plain *****. They act like a bunch of girls, but occasionally some football breaks out and we see some action.

Yeah the English teams just aren't that good, that is why they make the top European cup final on a routine basis. We'll see how this years Champions league pans out mate, I'm quietly confident the English teams will match the Spanish sides

Those mickymouse cups, you mean beating the CL winners in a final? Whilst the Europa League is seen as a micky mouse cup, it still doesn't stop the likes of Citeh, Spurs, Fulham and Liverpool crashing out at an early stage..

If you don't like the Spanish league then that is your opinion, I personally don't see them rolling around like you do, what I do see, especially at the top level, is players kicking lumps out of others because they simply can't get the ball off them..

The reason you don't see this in the PL is because no-one keeps the ball as well as these technically gifted players.. Ronaldo was the best player the PL has ever seen by a country mile, and people hated him because technically he was on a different level to everyone else, they couldn't get the ball off him so they kicked lumps out of him then accused him of diving..

Your all English final happened when Real Madrid and Barca were going through a transitional period.. The CL over the past 10 years has seen Man Utd winner 1x, Liverpool 1x.. Over the same period you've seen Barca 3x and Real Madrid 1x..

The only reason why we haven't seen a Barca-Real final is because they've had eachother in the semi-finals.. I'd love to see this year an English team against a Spanish team over 2 legs n the CL.. I'm crying out for a Man Utd-Real Madrid semi-final.. That would be a huge test to Englands so called best.

[blackNwhites]

Guess what, guess what...Bris doesn't like the English.

[Bris Vegas]

Guess what, guess what...Bris doesn't like the English.

How you came to that conclusion I have no idea

[RamNut]

I like how you try and twist my words..

I wasnt trying to twist your words? You're entitled to your opinion.

but....in fairness to Wenger....

1. he has the highest win percentage of any manager in their history who has completed at least 1 season

2. in the 30 years before Wenger, they won the FA cup twice...he's won it 4 times, quadrupling their success rate

3. in the 30 years before Wenger, they won the league 3 times....he's won the league 3 times in 15 years...doubling their success rate

4.Arsenal have been transformed from boring boring Arsenal to the team playing the most attractive football

5.In the last six years Abramovich's crazy money has pilfered half the domestic trophies so it hasn't been a level playing field....and now there's Man City too.

he's done well.

[EdinburghRam]

Those mickymouse cups, you mean beating the CL winners in a final? Whilst the Europa League is seen as a micky mouse cup, it still doesn't stop the likes of Citeh, Spurs, Fulham and Liverpool crashing out at an early stage..

You answered the question yourself. It's a mickymouse cup, it's more of a distraction and so they play weakened teams. It's fairly obvious what happens. I don't why you mentioned Fulham, they got to the final.

[blackNwhites]

How you came to that conclusion I have no idea

Sarcasm!

[Perky1106]

The reason you don't see this in the PL is because no-one keeps the ball as well as these technically gifted players.. Ronaldo was the best player the PL has ever seen by a country mile, and people hated him because technically he was on a different level to everyone else, they couldn't get the ball off him so they kicked lumps out of him then accused him of diving..

He did dive a lot. And that what was really pissed me off, because he didn't even need to with the talent me and you can only wish we were born with.

He wasn't the only technically gifted player of that sort in the PL but I agree with you that he was miles above the rest.

The problem is England's players who are technically gifted tend to be luxury players, e.g. Lennon, Wright-Philips, Walcott, even Giles Barnes. They can run the length of a pitch without a chance of anyone tackling them but had no end product.

Aguero, like Ronaldo, is one of those quality players who can do everything. He will score over twenty goals this season easily if he keeps doing what he does.

[Bris Vegas]

You answered the question yourself. It's a mickymouse cup, it's more of a distraction and so they play weakened teams. It's fairly obvious what happens. I don't why you mentioned Fulham, they got to the final.

Got to the final, and lost..

Liverpool played their strongest 11 and got beat over 2 legs by Atletico..

Not sure how this has turned into a Europa League/La Liga debate.. Back to Arsene Wenger

Did well, fantastically well.. Now he's IMO lost it.

[Bris Vegas]

I wasnt trying to twist your words? You're entitled to your opinion.

but....in fairness to Wenger....

1. he has the highest win percentage of any manager in their history who has completed at least 1 season

2. in the 30 years before Wenger, they won the FA cup twice...he's won it 4 times, quadrupling their success rate

3. in the 30 years before Wenger, they won the league 3 times....he's won the league 3 times in 15 years...doubling their success rate

4.Arsenal have been transformed from boring boring Arsenal to the team playing the most attractive football

5.In the last six years Abramovich's crazy money has pilfered half the domestic trophies so it hasn't been a level playing field....and now there's Man City too.

he's done well.

RamNut, I'm not saying he didn't do well.. Pre-2006 he did fantastic, he was up there with the best of them.. But keeping hold of a manager on past glories can be a really bad idea.. Sometimes you have to move on, keep up with the times.. I dont think Wenger is with the times..

Pre-2006 he had a fantastic team.. A solid defence with the likes of Adams and Campbell.. He had solid fullbacks in A.Cole and Luzhny.. Didnt Van Bronkhaust play for them around this period too? Anyway, in midfield it was Vieira, Pires, Lungbjerg, Parlour, Gilberto Silva with the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Wiltord upfront.. Now, these were quality players with quality ball ability.. Bergkamp and Pires were brilliant in their prime, brilliant..

But since then he's given up on quality and went for athletes in an attempt to deal with your Blackburns, Boltons, Stokes of this world.. He completely gave up on quality.. Fabregas, Wilshire, Arshavin, Clichy, Nasri aside there aren't many standout quality players that he has brought in..

Now that 3 of those are gone this Arsenal team looks to be one of the weakest Arsenal teams I've seen in years.. I stand by comment in that he's made them this way, they've been going back for years.. Take your Chelsea and Man Citys out and focus on his transfers and you'll see that he seems to have lost the plot.. His style of football isn't technical passing, it's direct, fast and very predictable..

[blackNwhites]

It's funny because people have been saying they're a bit to light weight for years, and that they over-play around the box area instead of shooting.

They've lacked that type of player that likes to get stuck in, and a lethal finisher.

Basically your Viera's and Henry's. They never replaced them two.

Way to light weight and lethargic. Nobody with a killer instinct.

[Alph]

Does anyone else think Walcott is miles away from being good enough?

At the levels he plays at (arsenal and England) I think he's awful.

Arshavin has lost his way too. Runs into trouble far too much. So much so that he's not worth their trouble.

Then theres wilshere and Ramsey, who like fabregas before them are going to have a huge weight on their shoulders when they should be free to develop into possibly world class players (especially wilshere).

Who'd like to follow arsene though?? Bugger that! Created some very special memories for those fans. Trophies, fabulous football and a season unbeaten!

[CumbrianRam]

He's just an athlete living off that England hattrick.

[blackNwhites]

Does anyone else think Walcott is miles away from being good enough?

At the levels he plays at (arsenal and England) I think he's awful.

Arshavin has lost his way too. Runs into trouble far too much. So much so that he's not worth their trouble.

Then theres wilshere and Ramsey, who like fabregas before them are going to have a huge weight on their shoulders when they should be free to develop into possibly world class players (especially wilshere).

Who'd like to follow arsene though?? Bugger that! Created some very special memories for those fans. Trophies, fabulous football and a season unbeaten!

Walcott has his moments, decent striker of the ball. Hasn't got an eye for a pass though, he ruins many decent moves by passing into no mans land.

[Alph]

Walcott has his moments, decent striker of the ball. Hasn't got an eye for a pass though, he ruins many decent moves by passing into no mans land.

I think his ability might shine at the level of Sunderland, fulham, Newcastle..... Maybe.

But a team with the expectations and ambitions of arsenal! Or England? I don't see him anywhere near good enough.

And the way pundits rave about him!! :eek:

"if he just had an end product...."

Well, then if kilbane had the pace of dani alves surely....

[blackNwhites]

I think his ability might shine at the level of Sunderland, fulham, Newcastle..... Maybe.

But a team with the expectations and ambitions of arsenal! Or England? I don't see him anywhere near good enough.

And the way pundits rave about him!! :eek:

"if he just had an end product...."

Well, then if kilbane had the pace of dani alves surely....

For Walcott though it's just one glaring error in his game, positionally I think he's decent as well. Just his final ball is always so amateur.

Weird how a person can plant a ball in the net but not at somebody else's feet. Has had his moments though, seems to get injured at his peak. Not sure why Arsenal don't try another formation to accommodate Walcott as an out and out striker.

Decent signings for Arsenal today in Per Metersacker, Yossi Benayoun and Mikel Arteta. Will improve their current squad but still missing a Samir Nasri and Cesc Fabregas etc..

Unless the formation/strategy will change to a less passing style?