Derby County - Where should we be in the grand scheme?

[Obi1Kenobi0]

I was having this debate with my friend today who is an Everton fan (who have punched well above their weight under Moyes) and he was disppointed they haven't managed to really break into the top four and push on. I argued their real level was now mid-table.

In getting on to Derby he was surprised that many Derby fans seem overly content in the Championship and lack ambition. Now my heart argued against this as I have always seen Derby as a real footballing city I think our attendances since being at PP reflect that. I remember our stints in the old first division of 88/89 and the Prem in the late 90s when we had some fantastic players and were a match for most teams.

But we always seemed to implode on and off the pitch and failed to push on for Europe. Now my intention is not to give a history lesson but really to debate a state of mind. Like I said I feel Derby should be in the top division and are capable of maintaining this and eventually challenging for Europeon places.

Yet my head thinks my mate had a point. Many of the people I work with are Derby fans and seem as happy as pigs in ***** about being in this league and say they don't want promotion this year. That the Prem is overrated anyway. Our record low points season seems to have dealt them a psychological blow they cannot throw off.

Yes we are in a league that is very competitive and anyone can beat anyone. It is also nice to be winning games. Our recent history also we are a yo yo club.

So my question is should I/we be more accepting that our lot from now on is decent championship side, maybe get promotion, spend a season or two in the Prem and get relegated? Or should we better than this and be aiming, indeed wanting, to be a established Prem team. Part of me thinks deep down I am living in the past :frown:

[Mary Hindge]

This is a difficult one when I first started to support Derby we were geting ourselves established in the Prem yet when my mum started supporting Derby she was watching them win the bloody league and playing the likes of Benfica and Juventus in euro cup so maybe it's a generation thing mate!

Older generation thinking we are under performing and the younger generation just wanting to be in the premiership!

Personally though, my head says one more season in this league then a good push for promotion my heart says we should be challenging for europe evry year!!!!

[Toadbelly]

There is no doubt in my mind that we should be in the top flight but I also accept that this honor has to be earned and, in recent years, we have failed to do so - primarily due to poor management, both in the board room and on the pitch.

I hate watching top flight matches at clubs like Wigan where the stands are half empty and there is no atmosphere. Whether you watch football live or on TV, it is the fans and the atmosphere they create that makes for an exciting event. This is true of any sport and is why clubs have to be focussed on keeping the matchday experience as affordable and enjoyable as possible. Lose the fans, lose the sport.

We have one of the best fan bases in the country and should be in the Prem. The good news is that we are on our way back under NC and, if we don't do anything stupid like sack him, we can look forward to a prolonged stay there

[Duracell]

But does wanting promotion show ambition or a certain blindness?

If we get promoted, the best we can hope for is the Europa League. Then what? Maybe a final if we're lucky. And who would be playing for us? A bunch of over-paid primadonnas who don't give a **** about Derby County. How much would tickets cost?

And there's atleast 4 fixtures that you can pretty much write off before the season even begins.

And what does relegation mean? It can be a financial a disaster.

Staying in this league has a lot going for it, you know. We're one of the bigger clubs, and we have a few locally born players.

Of course I want promotion, but look at it that way and you can see why some are so content in this league.

[Alph]

Think everyone harbours a dream where upon making it to the PL you can improve season after season. One day make the Europa League and become an established top 6 or 7 side. Then the dream would be to stay there i'd imagine hoping that the clubs above you will drop like Leeds. How long has Man Utd got left? Are Liverpool really one of the BIG 4? I suppose the limit of PL ambitions is to finish 5 every season. Sit and wait for some rich Arab to come in so you can push on. Failing that it's sit and wait for someone to drop out like Leeds did. Like we might see Man Utd become more ordinary over the next decade. Their long term future doesn't look too bright.

Although things must be exciting for Spurs. Their a new team now i think. Strong squad and producing big names in world football. This could be THAT team that everyone wants to be. An established PL side who are lucky enough to be on the rise while one of the "big four" slip. Spurs now should be considered a bigger threat to the league than Liverpool. Much stronger squad.

What about Villa? The possible chance to break into the top four. A chance to finish among the top teams every season and be in the perfect position to pounce when the chance comes. Villa needed to decide whether to go for it or play it safe. They chose to play safe. (can't blame them at all.) But Spurs are probably going to enter this challenge pretty soon too. If they don't break the same old domination at the top then how long until another team comes along?

The dream for Derby has to be to be where Spurs are now. Where Villa were with O'Neill. Where Everton almost threatened to to be. I think you can get enjoyment from being that sort of club. Probably doesn't sound very eventful..... but Spurs fans, Villa fans, Everton fans all want that spot. Everton and Villa have probably blown it. I hope Spurs can take the financial burden and keep pushing. It's going to be a long slog if they can do it.

First step for us is to beat off relegation in the PL and to become a Fulham perhaps. I'd love promotion asap.

I'd never say we "belong" in the top flight though. No more than Forest or Ipswich. We're a second tier side. With promotion promise and even the off relegation scare. We're exactly where we belong imo

[Duracell]

I'd never say we "belong" in the top flight though. No more than Forest or Ipswich. We're a second tier side. With promotion promise and even the off relegation scare. We're exactly where we belong imo

I strongly disagree.

Ok, I don't believe we "belong" in any league, as much as any other club. But are there really 19 other clubs in this country that have a better history and a long-term loyal fan base?

We often under-acheive, and maybe we are a lower top-tier side, but don't forget we're one of the founder members; we were one of the teams to beat in the early days of the football league, the immediate post-war period, and the early-mid 1970s. Two of those occasions are still in living memory.

You might, just might, find 19 other clubs with a bigger fan base than ours, but you won't find 19 other clubs with a bigger fan base and a similar or better pedigree.

We're special and we ourselves seem to forget it.

[ramblur]

Given the levels of support we can muster,then I think that we've underachieved (overall) during my years of support,which isn't far off 50 years.

So what are the reasons?Well,you could point to the usual suspects of bad management/bad signings at times,but I'm convinced the primary cause is our chronic record in producing home grown talent over this period.When did we produce a top class striker in this time-the only one I can think of is Phil Boyer,and he couldn't even get a game for us?

Top class midfielder-if you ignore Tom,then we've produced nothing in this period.

I think we can be a decent mid table Prem club (without a sugar daddy),but only if we can even bring ourselves up to the average that other clubs have managed in this respect.

You don't have to be a genius to realise that our chronic record on youth development has cost us millions over the years(either in lost fees or having to pay fees)-factor back in the average production of others over the period and our history may have been different.

Some managers have come in and made noises about it.We now have a manager who appears to be actually trying to get to grips with it.TBTG.

[Mary Hindge]

With my head saying promtion next season and my heart saying challenging for Europe every year, I guess those added together we should be finishing mid table in the prem each year so agree with bunny but also agree with ramblur, think if we had more youth coming through over the years we would be a mid table team or better. Everton, Villa are teams who have been much more succesful bringing through youngsters and teams I would like to be as consistant as.

[Alph]

I strongly disagree.

Ok, I don't believe we "belong" in any league, as much as any other club. But are there really 19 other clubs in this country that have a better history and a long-term loyal fan base?

We often under-acheive, and maybe we are a lower top-tier side, but don't forget we're one of the founder members; we were one of the teams to beat in the early days of the football league, the immediate post-war period, and the early-mid 1970s. Two of those occasions are still in living memory.

You might, just might, find 19 other clubs with a bigger fan base than ours, but you won't find 19 other clubs with a bigger fan base and a similar or better pedigree.

We're special and we ourselves seem to forget it.

It's not based on support for me. Sure our attendances are good at home. Poor away.

Not going to argue with our heritage either. Thats a part of why i support Derby and why i can never understand how anyone can enjoy their own team as much as i enjoy Derby County.

But now, in this moment, with the Jim Smith Era come and gone. With life after the 70's and life after Jim Smith i still think our roots are firmly in the second tier. It's where you'll find Derby County play their football nowadays. Since Jim Smith went imo we've become a second division side again. And that's what i think we are. When Nigel Clough establishes us in the PL like Smith did then i'd say we belong their. We've spent too long in the second division to try and claim we belong higher. Our recent visit to PL should of been proof enough of that.

It wont be long before we're an established PL side. But for now we're very much a second tier club. All the heritage and support you mentioned hasn't been matched on the pitch. And that's where football is played. The components are in place. It'll only be a matter of time.

[Obi1Kenobi0]

Agreed, youth development is the great leveller. The key is hanging on to them. I think accepting where we are is one thing but the real issue is the mentality of where we should be. No question, what Spurs are doing now is something we should strive for.

If it takes 10 years so be but as long as we are heading in the right direction I can live with that. But accepting the status quo and second tier football as our level is not a mindset I can understand. It's a good job Brian Clough never thought like that.

I'm sure I read we are around the 12th best supported club in England. If the Wigans, Fulhams Sunderlands of this world can make a fist of it so can we they are nothing special. I can accept where we are now but my real issue with some of my Rams friends is their chronic lack of ambition for the future and what can be achieved.

[Alex W]

I've always thought that the older and younger fans have totally different views of what Derby County is.

I'm 19, I started going to the odd Derby game when I was 8, I remember actually knowing the side etc from when we had Jeff Kenna at right back, Michael Johnson and Pablo Mills etc.

Older fans have seen the Clough times, when Derby County were a real force in football. Teams would fear going to the BBG, and the atmosphere was unreal according to people who went through it.

Compare it to what my generation has seen. Endless relegation battles, one promotion season and then the joke of a season in the Premier League.

They are two totally contrasting ideas of what this club is.

I do not see us a side that deserves to be there, as many have that claim. Forest do, Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds United etc. There are many in there that claim to 'deserve' to be there. No-one deserves anything, you get what you deserve. We have played second tier football for a long time, and hence we are here.

With what Nigel is trying to build, I can see us going up and perhaps doing a WBA until we fully establish ourselves in the PL, and from there who knows.

We have fantastic support, better than any in this league and several in the league above. We have a good modern stadium, a rich history and we are combining the new era with that. We have a manager who knows the club better than any other out there, and he clearly knows what he's doing.

All we need now is to watch and believe, and we'll make the Premier League in the coming seasons, and slowly Derby County will become a mainstay in the Premier League.

However, we can't go thinking we're supposed to be there. As we aren't. But we can make ourselves get there. And lets enjoy the ride, because we'll make it there soon. Onward and Upward. UTR.

[TimRam]

Not sure why we have not had the financial investment to put the club back on the map where they belong. Exciting history, passionate support, superb ground and facilities.

[HoratioSC]

It'd be interesting to see how other fans regard us. In my experience, Wolves fans believe that they're a "sleeping giant" and they consider us a Bradford sized club - clearly they're wrong. I see Wolves as a similar, perhaps even smaller club than us. Certainly not a Man City which is how they see themselves.

The factual metrics are really difficult :

Attendances

History

League wins

Cup wins

etc etc

There was a table on football365 and I think we were 15th or something - above Florist and Wolves.

As a few posters have rightly said, there are "eras" that change things. Boro were an absolutely nothing club for years then they had Rava, Juninho et al. Same for Sunderland and Newcastle. They had years in the doldrums then they have their time in the sun and suddenly they're a "big" club.

Wigan, Fulham, Blackburn, Blackpool - all relatively small clubs but punching above their weight. Modern fans think of them as bigger than Derby perhaps? Certainly the neutral / non-Derby fan would imo.

I think perhaps one thing that investors look for is growth potential. What's the maximum home attendance Derby could draw? On paper it's probably not that many but there's the intangible of Derby, historically at least, being a "football town" so our population to attendance ratio is pretty high (I posted on the DET years ago about it and we had a very good attendance ratio considering the local population). Obviously there's the international aspect which is why Man City, Chelsea, Man Ure, Liverpool, etc have had so much investment - the investors see the opportunity for growth.

Our board could see all that but I'm not sure I see much in the way of international promotion. Where's the DCFC Camp LA or Hong Kong DCFC Football Academy? Surely we need some branding and "hooks" to get loyalty.

I've gone off on one there haven't I....

[rammieib]

Very good thread.

My views are different dependent on how you phrase the question - where do I want to be and I say in the upper half of the Premiership experiencing top teams, experiencing good media exposure and with the club boosting the morale of the city.

Where do I want to be considering our current position - and the answer is challenging in the top 6. I think they are both different questions.

I understand why people would say that they see the risks of going up, but look at Blackpool, and they have shown with spirit and desire and the right blend of players, you can compete in that league. I find myself supporting them everytime I see them - I even find myself supporting Varney because he's a Derby player!

Clough has changed my views on him, but he still annoys me with some decisions. However I love the fact we have a manager who runs the line on his kids football team on a Sunday morning, I love the fact he hasn't appointed an assistant but sees them all as a team and love the fact he takes his own recycling bags to the Wyvern!! I want to see him bring success to Derby - and that success is where I see Derby.

[ramblur]

I've always thought that the older and younger fans have totally different views of what Derby County is.

Not too sure about that,Alex.Those of us who came through the Tim Ward era (which I thoroughly enjoyed) would have seen a club languishing in the doldrums for many years and thinking this was where we belonged,but of course BC changed all that.

However,those older ones who started in the Clough era might believe that this is the high standard we should expect and from which we've slipped.From my own viewpoint,I see us often resorting to type after all too brief appearances in the upper tier.If we'd spent longer in this tier during my lifetime,then the "type" might be different-just as it may well be for those who started with Clough.

I suppose the reason I enjoyed the Ward era so much was simply because I'd known nothing better-just as I appreciate some fans will have seen years of often mediocre championship football with a disastrous Prem season in the unpalatable sandwich (and yet,like myself in the Ward era,still manage to enjoy it).

[Alex W]

Not too sure about that,Alex.Those of us who came through the Tim Ward era (which I thoroughly enjoyed) would have seen a club languishing in the doldrums for many years and thinking this was where we belonged,but of course BC changed all that.

However,those older ones who started in the Clough era might believe that this is the high standard we should expect and from which we've slipped.From my own viewpoint,I see us often resorting to type after all too brief appearances in the upper tier.If we'd spent longer in this tier during my lifetime,then the "type" might be different-just as it may well be for those who started with Clough.

I suppose the reason I enjoyed the Ward era so much was simply because I'd known nothing better-just as I appreciate some fans will have seen years of often mediocre championship football with a disastrous Prem season in the unpalatable sandwich (and yet,like myself in the Ward era,still manage to enjoy it).

I think we will naturally all enjoy being a Rams fan, it's such a great club to be a fan of. I know every fan thinks that of their club, but it really is.

I just think that perhaps fans who have seen the Clough era think that perhaps that's what we should be aiming for, or that's what level of club we should be. Wheras fans who've seen relegation battles throughout their time might think that a lower Premier League spot is all we can hope for. Others might want us to one day be a top 6 PL side, and expect it.

Personally i'd be delighted with a role like Stokes currently. Put pay to a few top sides, slowly growing in squad quality, and have a great atmosphere at home. And all this while playing total football of course.

[ramblur]

I think we will naturally all enjoy being a Rams fan, it's such a great club to be a fan of. I know every fan thinks that of their club, but it really is.

I just think that perhaps fans who have seen the Clough era think that perhaps that's what we should be aiming for, or that's what level of club we should be. Wheras fans who've seen relegation battles throughout their time might think that a lower Premier League spot is all we can hope for. Others might want us to one day be a top 6 PL side, and expect it.

Personally i'd be delighted with a role like Stokes currently. Put pay to a few top sides, slowly growing in squad quality, and have a great atmosphere at home. And all this while playing total football of course.

Don't worry,we'll get there under Nigel.Assuming we get our fair share of young raw talent,then it's so much better having this come through than new signings.They'll have been brought through fully understanding our systems and what other basic requirements are,they won't need to settle into a new club(a process which can derail decent,experienced players) and there's always that tank of fans' goodwill for those coming through the ranks.

Of course this is all in the future,but I believe it to be the necessary underbelly of any truly ambitious club-bought success normally being transient in nature.

[Alex W]

Don't worry,we'll get there under Nigel.Assuming we get our fair share of young raw talent,then it's so much better having this come through than new signings.They'll have been brought through fully understanding our systems and what other basic requirements are,they won't need to settle into a new club(a process which can derail decent,experienced players) and there's always that tank of fans' goodwill for those coming through the ranks.

Of course this is all in the future,but I believe it to be the necessary underbelly of any truly ambitious club-bought success normally being transient in nature.

Agree with what you've said, but thinking about it, how many stars do United or Chelsea bring through?

Without buying young talents at 18 from other clubs, they don't seem to produce any. Arsenal are a special case, and Liverpool are decent with youth players, but Chelsea and United don't seem to get their own talent without buying it. I wonder why that is? You'd have thought they'd have a stream of players coming through.

They only have 1-2 each who are real talent, and almost all are bought from abroad for significant fees.

[ramblur]

Agree with what you've said, but thinking about it, how many stars do United or Chelsea bring through?

Without buying young talents at 18 from other clubs, they don't seem to produce any. Arsenal are a special case, and Liverpool are decent with youth players, but Chelsea and United don't seem to get their own talent without buying it. I wonder why that is? You'd have thought they'd have a stream of players coming through.

They only have 1-2 each who are real talent, and almost all are bought from abroad for significant fees.

I think as far as United go,then they're just going through a lean spell,which happens (our problem having been one great big lean spell).They've surely brought through their fair share over the years.

As for Chelsea,then that's really simply down to policy.If you buy a host of established internationals,you'd have to be a wonderkid to break through that.My "transient" comment (hopefully) was specifically directed at them (and now City).

[EastKentRam]

People mention that we have great support, yes at home we do but away from home there's League 1 sides with better support. Our away attendances as a percentage of our home attendances must be one of the worst in the division. Does that show we've got a lot of families/elderly attending home games? Or a lot of fans live close to Derby so home games are very convenient for them?